deliverance from complicated programing languages?

This is a discussion on deliverance from complicated programing languages? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by sept Also an interesting point in this topic was that our hardware becomes better and better and ...

  1. #61
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,467
    Quote Originally Posted by sept View Post
    Also an interesting point in this topic was that our hardware becomes better and better and at some day we are no longer forced to use fast programming languages.
    I would be careful with that. As hardware becomes better and better, it also becomes a good platform for solving ever more complex problems.

    Besides,... we aren't forced to use fast programming languages today already. As we weren't 20 years ago or 30 years ago.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #62
    Kernel hacker
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Farncombe, Surrey, England
    Posts
    15,677
    One thing that is often forgotten is that 90% of the time is spent in 10% of the code. This isn't ALWAYS true, but I've seen LOTS of code, and it holds true for a large share of the code I've looked at.

    This doesn't necessarily mean that the other 90% isn't worth optimizing, but it's also likely that if the 90% takes twice as long, it won't really make a whole lot of difference.

    Of course, 10% of 1 million lines of code is still 100000 lines of code, so may not be so easy to optimize. But in such a large project, it's likely that within those 100000 lines, 10% are responsible for 90% of the execution time, and those 10000 lines shouldn't be too difficult to make run faster if they are written in a RAD language, simply by rewriting those to a more optimized language, such as C or Assembler.

    --
    Mats
    Compilers can produce warnings - make the compiler programmers happy: Use them!
    Please don't PM me for help - and no, I don't do help over instant messengers.

  3. #63
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,893
    80/20 are the typically cited numbers. The famous 80/20 rule: 80&#37; of the time spent in 20% of the code, 80% of the bugs in 20% of the code, 80% of the time taken by 20% of the project, and so on.
    Or this variant.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  4. #64
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,467
    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    priceless!
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #65
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Nevertheless, some things such as GUI is very difficult to do in C/C++.
    This in turn makes C/C++ a very difficult language on that regard.
    That is less about the difficulty of the language and more about using the right tool for the job.

    Also compared to other languages, C/C++ is also very difficult due to the low level, such as pointers, arrays, bounds, etc, etc. Some may have trouble grasping it, but I agree with you that once you get to know it, it's not a difficult language itself.
    Hard concepts don't make for a hard language IMO. Some of the concepts I had to learn for Prolog and Lisp were difficult to put my head around, but that doesn't mean either language was difficult. Heck I know (and tutored) people who thought that the concepts in basic algebra was hard, that doesn't make the math language hard (at least at that level).


    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee
    Or this variant.
    OMG that was great. Reminded me of:
    Kirk: "How long to re-fit?"
    Scotty: "Eight weeks. But you don't have eight weeks, so I'll do it for you in two."
    Kirk: "Do you always multiply your repair estimates by a factor of four?"
    Scotty: "How else to maintain my reputation as a miracle worker?"
    Kirk: "Your reputation is safe with me."

  6. #66
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,618
    Quote Originally Posted by Thantos View Post
    That is less about the difficulty of the language and more about using the right tool for the job.
    But however you look at it, it would seem that all tools for C/C++ is hard to use for GUI programming (unless you count frameworks such as .NET which is technically made from C++). So whatever you do, when using C/C++ to make GUI, you're going to have a hard time, which makes the language difficult to use.
    But then again, it's not he language's fault, but the approach that is difficult.
    It doesn't really matter what we do, if we do create GUI with C or C++, it will be hard. Which is kindof my point. I don't know how to explain it better... When doing GUI, perhaps another tool is a better choice for the job, as you say.

    Hard concepts don't make for a hard language IMO. Some of the concepts I had to learn for Prolog and Lisp were difficult to put my head around, but that doesn't mean either language was difficult. Heck I know (and tutored) people who thought that the concepts in basic algebra was hard, that doesn't make the math language hard (at least at that level).
    Absolutely. If, for one, do not find C++ difficult. But to newbies, the language can be seen as difficult. And RAD tools are easier, though that doesn't mean C/C++ is hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  7. #67
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,681
    Of course the percentage of processors running a GUI is really low so IMO the GUI arguement is junk.

  8. #68
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,618
    Heh. There are a few other things that can be a pain, but just basic language isn't difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #69
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,893
    Never saw a good GUI that wasn't hard to create, no matter the language. I despise GUI programming.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  10. #70
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,467
    C++ is not that hard really. It's the const qualifier that is.

    Anyways, the complexity of developing for a GUI under C++ is only noticeable when doing straight Win32 programming. But this is not because of the language. It's because the Win32 API is, at the lack of a better word... complicated.

    MFC helped but still not that much. 3rd party vendors like Borland and Open Source projects like wxWidgets did IMO a much better job at encapsulating that nightmarish API. My experience with Borland's VCL is limited so I may be disputed on this, which will be fine.

    Regardless, apart from the const qualifier, I find C++ concepts easy to grasp, its logic makes sense and it's actually easy to learn. If anything, just an hard language to master.

    EDIT: hmm... guess I misunderstood the earlier posts. Seems you fine people are talking of coding a GUI, not coding for a GUI
    Last edited by Mario F.; 02-26-2008 at 08:54 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #71
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,681
    You mean you find the concept of a volatile static const variable difficult to understand? pfft

  12. #72
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,893
    Actually, I find it kind of hard to understand why you would make a variable (as opposed to a pointee type) const and volatile, yeah.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  13. #73
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,618
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    EDIT: hmm... guess I misunderstood the earlier posts. Seems you fine people are talking of coding a GUI, not coding for a GUI
    Ehm, well, that's not really true. I don't know if I should separate them, though. Coding a GUI and coding for a GUI can both be a pain in C/C++ since there really is no excellent and terrific GUI to do it for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  14. #74
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,681
    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    Actually, I find it kind of hard to understand why you would make a variable (as opposed to a pointee type) const and volatile, yeah.
    You have a signal that is coming from an outside source that can change. So you need volatile so that the compiler doesn't optimize it into registers. However, your section of the program must not change the value. So you make it const.

  15. #75
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    7,467
    That is just scary.

    But really, const could really run circles around my mind. It was, for me, the hardest concept to understand in C++. Not so much the principle, which is rather - as with all complicated things - simple. It was the implications and the whole new world of const correctness.

    Ironically, I only started understanding const and const correctness when I started using const everywhere. I followed the advise of Prelude, I think (can't recall exactly) which went something like this; Fight the beast and const everything. Said and done. Shortly after my sig was born.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. Why C Matters
    By DavidP in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 136
    Last Post: 01-16-2008, 08:09 AM
  2. Strange loop
    By D@rk_force in forum C++ Programming
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 12-18-2004, 01:40 PM
  3. Languages dying
    By Zewu in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 07-29-2003, 10:08 AM
  4. Programming Languages
    By DarkViper in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-12-2002, 01:28 PM
  5. How can an api be accessed through other languages
    By Shadow12345 in forum Windows Programming
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-21-2002, 07:01 PM

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21