deliverance from complicated programing languages?

This is a discussion on deliverance from complicated programing languages? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by citizen >> Not so. If it's too much, then we can we have 36 tabs open? Hard ...

  1. #31
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    >> Not so. If it's too much, then we can we have 36 tabs open?

    Hard limits tend to be a bad idea. But imagine your frustration if I assumed that users of Citizen Explorer used like 10 tabs. Quality Assurance couldn't think of 36 things to do, so freezing occurs only sparingly. I do the best I can to fix it, shipment proceeded. I'm not saying that happened or even that that's what breaks it, but it doesn't seem to be the decision developers are hinging on.
    You'd at least think they would allow to open more instances of the process. It would go lengths around the little problem, and they'd have to work less on the whole matter, as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by twomers View Post
    I dunno how fair that test is, Elysia. One could consider Opera caching the page which might lead to quicker load times. Set the 39 pages temporarily as your home page. Close all windows and press the 'home' button. That should get over the fact of FF's plugins loading etc. Can Opera do the same thing? If you feel like a real test load the same pages in FF and Opera.
    How does that work? Close all tabs, set homepage and load it?

    Btw, Bubba raises an interesting point. I'm inclined to agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #32
    The superhaterodyne twomers's Avatar
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    Well, in FF you can set your homepage to an array of tabs. For example for me I have gmail and google reader set as it, so if I press the 'home' button in FF it'll open gmail on the tab I press home in, and reader in a new tab. If you set your homepage as 39 different pages (tools -> options -> main -> Use Current Pages), then press home it should open 39 different tabs, without you worrying about plugin load times etc.

  3. #33
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    39 tabs opened in a browser is no way to test that browser speed/performance/quality/whatever. It's, at best, a way to measure an user insanity. The more tabs, the more insane and the least I'll be open to reason with them. I advice strong medication and 6 months rest away from any computer. And I'll stop with the superlatives here. I could go on forever.

    39 tabs is not what any decent browser maker aims at. It's not useful to a user to. And the time one could gain from better code to optimize the load of such tabs will be wasted by the user on the time it takes for him to find the tab he wants. I can't believe this argument was brought up to justify one browser over another.

    It just happens to be that the benefits of faster hardware are consistently applied to the whole machine.
    This is exactly the cornerstone of my reasoning. Software performance is more tied to hardware improvements than it is to language design. Naturally there are differences; CornedBee brushed it on his post. However, we cannot negate a language capacity based on the fact it comparatively under-performs. I gave an example of one such application where speed is not a concern. Like that, there are many other type of applications.

    Speed is the realm of Hardware. Programming languages have to knock to come in.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #34
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I think we have different versions.
    I use 9.50 Alpha, which only has Tools -> Preferences -> General -> Set current.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  5. #35
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    You'd at least think they would allow to open more instances of the process.
    I don't see why that's useful...

    About Firefox, I usually browse for 2 hours without restarting it. And I usually finish what I was doing before it. I don't see any direct performance hit when it has been running for a very long time. I just know it starts using more memory due to caching. In fact, I usually prefer closing the browser just to close all the tabs. So it would be very annoying if it would keep everything open. What I really like is that Firefox is capable of loading the whole previous session when something caused an unexpected shutdown. Like a power failure, which happens quite often for me.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  6. #36
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Speed is the realm of Hardware. Programming languages have to knock to come in.
    I don't think so. With my current XP settings even a Pentium III 450Mhz worked quite quickly. I just had to choose the right applications to use. I bought a new computer only because Photoshop, Flash and some games didn't work well on it.

    My dream is to make a huge application that does gazillion things but runs veery quickly on an old machine...

    GRR... I wanted to use the Edit button.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  7. #37
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    I tire quickly of this attitude that with the current crop of hardware software speed does not matter. It is attitudes like this that create the bloatware that permeates the industry.
    Actually it is not. The attitude that creates the bloatware that permeates the industry is poor quality control, deadlines being set based on marketing and not on software analysis and inadequate team management. Probably also what you say, I would have to agree. But not only and probably not the most.

    Meanwhile, the discussion was about about programming languages. Not about the quality of the software that comes out of those programming languages, Bubba.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #38
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, the discussion was about about programming languages. Not about the quality of the software that comes out of those programming languages, Bubba.
    Lest I remind you your posts began this portion of the discussion.

  9. #39
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Lest I remind you your posts began this portion of the discussion.
    No they didn't. Read better.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #40
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    I don't see why that's useful...

    About Firefox, I usually browse for 2 hours without restarting it. And I usually finish what I was doing before it. I don't see any direct performance hit when it has been running for a very long time. I just know it starts using more memory due to caching. In fact, I usually prefer closing the browser just to close all the tabs. So it would be very annoying if it would keep everything open. What I really like is that Firefox is capable of loading the whole previous session when something caused an unexpected shutdown. Like a power failure, which happens quite often for me.
    When using Firefox for a while you'll start notice how tabs takes longer to load, how it takes longer to load pages and even doing normal tasks such as clicking on a link starts taking a lot longer.
    Restarting Firefox fixes this.
    So when having lots of tabs, performance quickly degrades. It becomes slow.
    Opening new processes would allow you to split tabs among processes, thus fixing the whole "it wasn't designed for 39 tabs" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    39 tabs opened in a browser is no way to test that browser speed/performance/quality/whatever. It's, at best, a way to measure an user insanity. The more tabs, the more insane and the least I'll be open to reason with them. I advice strong medication and 6 months rest away from any computer. And I'll stop with the superlatives here. I could go on forever.
    On the contrary. A good browser does not freeze when opening tabs. And it does not take forever to open them either.
    And you seem to believe that everyone is like you. In fact, people like to have many windows open at once, which is the reason we use tabs in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It's not useful to a user to.
    Stop guessing for yourself. Just because it isn't useful to you, doesn't mean it isn't useful for someone else.

    And the time one could gain from better code to optimize the load of such tabs will be wasted by the user on the time it takes for him to find the tab he wants.
    But if the user wants to open a lot of tabs and they never load then the whole switching between tabs is useless.
    Plus your argument fails in that it's harder to find one tab among many and that applies to many tabs. So in order to make it easy to find one tab among many, you have to have many tabs open and that means that they must make sure the browser works fine with many tabs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #41
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Opening new processes would allow you to split tabs among processes, thus fixing the whole "it wasn't designed for 39 tabs" argument.
    Excellent. I suggest that you suggest this to the Firefox developers.

    Now, what's with "deliverance from complicated programing languages" again?
    C + C++ Compiler: MinGW port of GCC
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    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  12. #42
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I think I already did? At least the whole more threaded bit. No freezing. But they wanted to sped time elsewhere I think? Meh, long ago.
    But as for the original topic, at least one thing that can be said for certain is that there will always be a need for different languages.
    Maybe not for speed, but for the approach and functionality and to what market it's aimed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  13. #43
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Stop guessing for yourself. Just because it isn't useful to you, doesn't mean it isn't useful for someone else.
    Software the likes of browsers are developed to the masses. And I can guess my left arm, the average user doesn't care about 39 tabs on their browser.

    Meanwhile, because I don't want to guess anymore I just opened 39 tabs on my browser. All pointing to different places. My Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.12 didn't crash or halt on my , I'll remind you again, aged PIII 1GHz 5000Mb Ram laptop. So, I'm really unsure as to who is guessing here. Me or You. I was also able to open tabs while others were being loaded. Only exception was if the page contained Flash.

    And since we are on the guessing frame of mind, I then tried to go to a specific tab (1&1 Webhost Control panel). Cycling through them is not doable. Too slow. The left and right buttons don't help either since I can only see a minimal portion of the window title and the tab menu was crowded with items, but the only viable choice.

    Do I find this useful? No. The time it took me to go to that tab was way more than the time it would take me to click on the bookmarks toollbar button for that page and load it on a new tab. No more guessing, ok?

    EDIT: Just read laserlight's post. This is the last I'll have to say about this off-topic issue.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 02-23-2008 at 10:10 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  14. #44
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Software the likes of browsers are developed to the masses. And I can guess my left arm, the average user doesn't care about 39 tabs on their browser.

    Meanwhile, because I don't want to guess anymore...
    You are guessing that the 10+ million users of Firefox are like you and don't like many tabs.
    Right. So that explains why FF2 had the option to save sessions, and why Tab Mix Plus, which further can control tabs, and allow them to be split onto multiple rows rather than scrolling, appears on the top 50 popular extensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    And since we are on the guessing frame of mind, I then tried to go to a specific tab (1&1 Webhost Control panel). Cycling through them is not doable. Too slow. The left and right buttons don't help either since I can only see a minimal portion of the window title and the tab menu was crowded with items, but the only viable choice.
    I can put tabs on multiple rows and quickly find the tab I want, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    No more guessing, ok?
    Uhuh, let's stop assuming everyone is like you.

    And that should clear up a few things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  15. #45
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    I wanted to comment on this stuff, but the tone of this thread discouraged me. I think it's better if we let it rest. No more Firefox and Opera speed comparisons, please.

    Speed is the realm of Hardware. Programming languages have to knock to come in.
    I partially disagree. Speed is not just the hardware's business. It's not the language's business, though. It's the programmer's business. Poorly chosen algorithms and data structures hurt more programs than any language effect could ever do. They hurt more than any hardware upgrade can ever make up for, because hardware improves linearly, while poor algorithms hurt performance quadratically and exponentially.
    You can mostly ignore performance when making your language choice, but to ignore performance when actually writing applications "because hardware is getting better anyway" is irresponsible and ignorant.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

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