Fixing the Indentation draft

This is a discussion on Fixing the Indentation draft within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by abachler Thats because most of us aren't mind readers. Stop expecting people to know implicitly what your ...

  1. #31
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Thats because most of us aren't mind readers. Stop expecting people to know implicitly what your point is, and state it explicitly.
    And clearly it's no use trying to state it explicitly anyway because it's either ignored or misinterpreted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #32
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    All I want is suggestions to my draft to make it acceptable and approved by the community.
    Is it so darn difficult?!
    Everything that have to said about those suggestions was said already! This indentation article has been debated for what? 3 months now!?

    • If you still want suggestions then you want us to take you by the hand. In that case you shouldn't even be trying to write this article.
    • If you want approval then you have a problem of lack of confidence, in which case you shouldn't even be trying to write this article.
    Does this sound to you like a tip? Probably not. You aren't smart enough.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  3. #33
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    [*]If you still want suggestions then you want us to take you by the hand. In that case you shouldn't even be trying to write this article.
    NO! I want people who object to take a look, see what's missing and point out what can be changed, with examples if possible. That way you get your point across.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    [*]If you want approval then you have a problem of lack of confidence, in which case you shouldn't even be trying to write this article.[/LIST]Does this sound to you like a tip? Probably not. You aren't smart enough.
    That's very nice of you.
    You're all saying this is a community project and so if I can't get it accepted by the community, it shouldn't be there, should it? It's not lack of confidence and I shouldn't give up just because two stubborn people are blocking my way.
    You aren't helping anyone and I'm trying to help others with a richer article to which you seem to object!

    Are we going to turn this into a flamewar now? You seem to be a good at being rude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  4. #34
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    two stubborn people are blocking my way
    I'm now completely convinced I'm talking to a child. So really... sorry, but I'm out of here.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #35
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Sorry, I had to take a break for dinner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    NO! I want people who object to take a look, see what's missing and point out what can be changed, with examples if possible. That way you get your point across.
    Ironically, I'm asking you to integrate your thoughts into the community article the exact same way. The only difference is that, much of the substance of the main article is expressed in its' first section. I'll reproduce it here for convenience:
    As in writing, one style does not suit all the programmers in the world. Apart from expectations in the workspace, programmers will commonly differ on several points concerning indentation and programming style, mostly out of personal preference.

    Most view indentation as a presentation model that simply needs consistency and consideration for the medium where the code will be printed or displayed. For instance, at cboard, we often see code indented with a mixture of tabs and spaces instead of picking one or the other and unintentionally causing it to be formatted improperly by browsers in a fixed-width font.

    Achieving consistency is easy if you choose to adopt an already existing style such as K&R or Allman style, however, programmers sometimes develop their own tastes and opinions about what “looks good” through programming experience. Common considerations in the format of any style guideline are:

    • placement of braces and parentheses;
    • spacing between operators;
    • tab length (or the sum of the spaces from the beginning of a line);
    • the arrangement and format of comment lines;


    Individuals may find it rewarding to rotate their indentation styles to keep their work from getting repetitive or simply getting used to a style they may be expected to use more commonly. It is equally important to avoid deviating from the style, and to never rotate styles in the middle of a source file or project, where the indentation may become a distraction.
    That's all I felt particularly needed to be said. I'm not trying to be stubborn, but as per my original suggestion, I ask if you will or if you are capable of teaching them according to this. Specifically, I think you could easily "teach people how" with the four bullets I put into the article, with examples as necessary. You may have to rewrite a substantial bit of what your article says, and make structural changes to the community article, but I think you can express yourself in accordance with this part at least.

    I urge you once again to merge your piece with the community article, unless you substantially disagree with its contents and where particularly it is wrong. Have I misrepresented the subject? That may justify a complete rewrite with your draft in its' place, and you will, at last, be represented in the wiki.

  6. #36
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Thank you, at least, for making an effort with this.
    I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll have a look over the main article again and compare it to the draft and try to re-evaluate the draft and see how well it adheres against your suggestion.
    Then I may attempt to re-write and we'll how how it turns out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  7. #37
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Wow..... what I have I missed?

    BTW, that's a somewhat rhetorical question..... But I didn't know some people could get this worked up over this kind of thing.

  8. #38
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I've gone over the main article and my draft.
    I made a few minor changes to the main article. A small edit to be more gender neutral and I also commented out the part that actually encouraged the use of spaces. Since we're supposed to be neutral, I don't think it's appropriate. Perhaps it would be best to be rewritten in such way that the feature could be recommended if spaces are used.
    Let the interested parties react...

    Anyway, I also went over my own draft and made some subtle changes to put more emphasis on that coding styles are not limit by set rules and that each programmer should create or choose their own style. I also made a few changes to bracket placement as to not actually recommend much "good placement," but more "avoid bad placement."
    I also added a section for code beautifiers and actually went as far as to encourage the use of them.

    http://cpwiki.sourceforge.net/User:Elysia/Indentation
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #39
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Wow..... what I have I missed?
    An opportunity to be quiet.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #40
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    An opportunity to be quiet.
    Coming from you, that's rich.

  11. #41
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Yeah. But I was here first .

    BTW: I miss getting annoyed with you Start a thread on Kosovo.
    Last edited by Mario F.; 02-23-2008 at 08:21 AM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #42
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    At least it appears to be over. I've never felt so dirty.

  13. #43
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Anyway, what's the say on the draft? Can we put this issue to rest or is it too early?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  14. #44
    The superhaterodyne twomers's Avatar
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    Wait a second.
    This will require a lot more time than this. So far as I'm concerned we haven't even established the optimal form of indentation...

  15. #45
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I can wait forever. It seems others are impatient.
    I just want to know it the current draft will do. If the current draft is good enough to be considered as to be able to replace the current main page.
    Then all the interested parties can go typing away to fix it up to what they think is necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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