Fixing the Indentation draft

This is a discussion on Fixing the Indentation draft within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; SCREW indentation! For crying out loud! Elysia, you are the most /* deleted */ person I have had the displeasure ...

  1. #16
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    SCREW indentation!

    For crying out loud! Elysia, you are the most /* deleted */ person I have had the displeasure of meeting in my entire so far blissful life.

    How about you writing about n++ being better than ++n, or arrays being pointers, or references being useless? These are all things you also say, among other pearls of monkey-genome wisdom you carry on that strange brain of yours. You are a master programmer. You know it all. Write about those too. Forget indentation. You are so much better than that. Teach the stupid people we are.
    Last edited by laserlight; 03-01-2008 at 12:34 AM. Reason: Deleted offensive insult.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #17
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    Calm down, people.

  3. #18
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    It seems that you assume that there even is such a thing as the 'best' coding style. Personally I write my code for teh people that will be reading it 99&#37; of the time, me myself and I. Most people get used to the sytle that they first learn and stick with it unless there is some significant and real reason to change. Ive been around long enough to see a lot of different coding styles. There is only thing that I can say with certainty, it is generalyl best for a coder to remain consistent int ehir coding style. When I read someone elses code I don't expect them to use the same style that i do, but I do appreciate if they keep teh same style at least within the same project.

    Oh and n++ is not the same as ++n

    Code:
    X = 5;
    Y = 5;
    
    printf("%d\n", X++);
    printf("%d\n", ++Y);
    
    printf("%d %d\n",  X , Y);
    output -
    5
    6
    6 6


    ++n increments the variable prior to evaluation, where n++ increments it after
    Last edited by abachler; 02-21-2008 at 03:50 PM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #19
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robwhit View Post
    Calm down, people.
    I am now. I'm feeling much better.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #20
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    >> Oh and n++ is not the same as ++n

    We know. But the behavior difference is basically the only reason to prefer one or the other, especially considering looping. Nevertheless, people will look at n++ in a for loop and be like "damn you're not optimizing and writing code at the same time! Shock and horror!"

  6. #21
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    I am now. I'm feeling much better.
    Yeah I take a half hour of scream therapy every day when i get home, helps get things off my chest. I always feel much better too I don't know what the neighbors think though lol.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  7. #22
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    If they think bad, you can always execute another scream therapy session at them, for good measure
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #23
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    >> Nevertheless, people will look at n++ in a for loop and be like "damn you're not optimizing and writing code at the same time! Shock and horror!"
    That was not the argument being presented. There's no need to derail this thread with that discussion, but if you'd like further explanation I'd be happy to provide it elsewhere.

  9. #24
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    Please do not play cookie cutter with my replies.
    It makes it much easier to make sure I address every point. It's either that or try to remember everything and address all which usually just falls apart since I miss something. I prefer the former, to address everything.
    It's difficult to merge everything into one quote, as well. Sorry if it's an eyesore.

    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    There is no sense in having a wikipedia if there can not be any group concensus over such a stupid issue.
    Which is exactly we we're having this discussion!

    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    That confirms your belief it is perfectly okay to just ignore the community regarding any issue at all, and use it as a platform for your own ideas when people disagree with you.
    Clearly, this is not so since I would have ignored any advice I'd been given. I've reformed the draft several times to include suggestions from others, including you.
    I've stated my opinions on the main article several times now, and it seems that everything that I'd like it to be, it isn't. It's lacking. And yet there doesn't seem to have been made any big changes to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    Publish your thoughts somewhere else if you are too lazy to take matters into your own hands and fix what's already been written in the community article.
    Mind you, my draft is the main article plus what I believe is important. And if I'd edit the main article, then we'd just get the same problem again because you and at least one other do not agree with how I write things.

    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    I'm urging you to take laserlight's advice. How about you merge it somehow, and then let the interested parties react. I'm sure that we are all smart enough to write something to everyone's satisfaction. It won't kill you to critically review your article, anyway; through revision, you may find a clearer, concise way to help individuals through the main article.
    I can do that. But if people do not agree with how I've written stuff and do not give a go ahead, I'll just be blamed for replacing it with my own and the article will revert back.
    So I would ask then, should I do this, even though you and especially Mario, do not agree with how it's written?

    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    And use it as the visual aid to explain as you see fit: refer to line numbers like they do in books if you must. I'd use the principles set forth in the community article.
    You want me to have one big fat example and keep referring to it through out the article? Horror, I say. Small, precise examples locally are better in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    The code above is as well indented if it were written like Whitesmith's, where your paltry "+1 indentation level" rule doesn't exist. The brace placement you suggest is not applicable, because the brace is in the same character row as any statement in the block. You have to be sure that the principles you espouse are in the right place, and expand beyond what is "simple," because oversimplifying is intellectually dishonest.
    First, it's not "rule" anymore; it's "recommendation" or in other words, what might be suggested but is optional and not demanded.
    Second, contrary to your claims, since the code is properly indented, it does follow the guidelines as I've outlined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    SCREW indentation!
    Yes, and screw void main too

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    How about you writing about n++ being better than ++n, or arrays being pointers, or references being useless?
    All the thing I've expressed are my opinions, my view. Even if they seem like something else, like a fact, they aren't. Even if it looks like I'm mentioning it's a fact, it isn't. It's my opinion and my view. It does not mean it is correct, and it is not meant to change your view or opinions or that of the language itself. I've never mentioned that n++ being better than ++n is a fact. It isn't. I have expressed that I prefer n++ over ++n. It's a taste matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    It seems that you assume that there even is such a thing as the 'best' coding style.
    Where did you get this from?
    The article itself is written in such a way (or is supposed to be) that it does not promote one style over the other. Which isn't always a very easy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by abachler View Post
    Oh and n++ is not the same as ++n
    I know, I know... subtle difference, but it is there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  10. #25
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Elysia, one last time:

    Edit the current article - if you feel like doing it - and accept your edit may be edited too. If you don't do that you don't understand what a wiki is and you are not needed in one.

    In that case, create your own webpage and spill there all your thoughts.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  11. #26
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    I have already stated that I'm fine with people editing the draft I have. What I don't like is major overhauls, which is why I ask before I replace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  12. #27
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Second, contrary to your claims, since the code is properly indented, it does follow the guidelines as I've outlined.
    Whitesmith does not follow your guideline that braces are correctly placed flush on a new line. I believe you misunderstood my claim. There are perfectly acceptable styles that leave the brace on the previous line (as in 1TBS and I think GNU-style), or indent the brace half a tabstop on the next line (as in Whitesmith). The "+1 indentation level" rule/recommendation/lie is therefore overgeneralized (which is a logical fallacy) and written incorrectly.

    It is not because "it is pretty, so it is well indented, according to what I said." That's a non-sequitor ill suited to justify your statement.

    At least we're getting somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    I can do that. But if people do not agree with how I've written stuff and do not give a go ahead, I'll just be blamed for replacing it with my own and the article will revert back.
    So I would ask then, should I do this, even though you and especially Mario, do not agree with how it's written?


    Quote Originally Posted by citizen
    And use it as the visual aid to explain as you see fit: refer to line numbers like they do in books if you must. I'd use the principles set forth in the community article.
    You want me to have one big fat example and keep referring to it through out the article? Horror, I say. Small, precise examples locally are better in my opinion.
    I'm willing to stop this discussion in the next five minutes, just so you do *something* and this can be over.

    But then I have some questions for you: Do you agree that the principles in the main article are correct? Iff so, I don't see why you have the justification to replace them with "recommendations," because it is clear that. as written, the work is sufficient. Would you be willing, or are you able to explain to the unwary according to those? That would be substantial progress that furthers everyone's own ends. You cannot take away my right to edit just because you are unhappy with the fact you did not write the result.

    And secondly, in response to the accusation that big examples are not precise. If you write the main article as you would your posts, it's clear I will view your article as disjointed. I may make edits so that the article will flow better, or omit examples that do not need to be there. Sometimes, moderate figures can denonstrate copius points and I hope that you realize this.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 02-21-2008 at 05:11 PM.

  13. #28
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I have already stated that I'm fine with people editing the draft I have. What I don't like is major overhauls, which is why I ask before I replace.
    You don' have to be satisfied about it, you have to live with it.
    It's not your article. It's everybody's article. Get over it!
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  14. #29
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ!
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    Clearly people do no understand what I'm implying.
    And clearly it's impossible to reason with you people.
    All I want is suggestions to my draft to make it acceptable and approved by the community.
    Is it so darn difficult?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  15. #30
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Clearly people do no understand what I'm implying.
    Thats because most of us aren't mind readers. Stop expecting people to know implicitly what your point is, and state it explicitly.

    BTW , Mario's rant was so funny and righ ton the mark that its going into ym sig until you get rid of that rediculous piece of self agrandizing spew.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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