CP wiki timeouts

This is a discussion on CP wiki timeouts within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Well I'd say if it's going to be moved, better sooner than later. Seriously, if you knew some of the ...

  1. #16
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Well I'd say if it's going to be moved, better sooner than later.

    Seriously, if you knew some of the 'work arounds' I had to do to get it working on sf.net -- I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be happy. On that subject, is anyone keeping backups? (If not, log-on to phpmyadmin and dump the SQL database, or tell me to do so). I'd say move it, because some of the security issues are pretty critical.

    Btw,
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwiki.sf.net/Indentation
    Need to press space (or backspace) several times to add (or remove) enough indentation
    Not possible to travel between indentation levels easily
    Not possible to add or remove indentation from several lines at once
    You can tell Elysia has been bagging spaces... The truth is most editors can treat spaces as tabs -- making none of these true.
    Last edited by zacs7; 02-14-2008 at 04:15 AM.

  2. #17
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7 View Post
    Btw,

    You can tell Elysia has been bagging spaces... The truth is most editors can treat spaces as tabs -- making none of these true.
    Note 1) You are free to do minor edits if you think it is in appropriate or can be done better.
    Note 2) Note the note that all these disadvantages can be removed with proper editor support.
    And note 3) I don't use spaces, so I don't fully know about them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  3. #18
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    The information is though still incorrect, Elysia. We really need a closure on this issue. It's just an indentation article.

    In fact, I'm even perplexed at the need to detail the pros and cons between spaces and tabs. These are so hazy, so dependent on taste and so minor issues, that whatever the opinion is (for or against) anything that is said about it is bound to be wrong.

    In the name of clarity and objectivity, it should be removed from the article.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  4. #19
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    It would be the last bit of anything that I left in which Elysia had actually written into the main article, so expect a bit of a battle. I do however think that it is a fair summary of the discussion we had on the topic, which remains cited. Perhaps it would be clearer if that were specifically stated? Because I don't know whether people should take that discussion at face value and draw their own conclusions, or what.

    Additionally, I would point out that the article states consideration for the medium has to be considered (such as a browser), so I don't think we can totally afford to neatly ignore the issue with a simple statement. If the pros and cons are really not a fair evaluation than that is a significant flaw with the whole article indeed.

  5. #20
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    The information is though still incorrect, Elysia. We really need a closure on this issue. It's just an indentation article.
    Incorrect how?

    In fact, I'm even perplexed at the need to detail the pros and cons between spaces and tabs. These are so hazy, so dependent on taste and so minor issues, that whatever the opinion is (for or against) anything that is said about it is bound to be wrong.

    In the name of clarity and objectivity, it should be removed from the article.
    It should absolutely not. I will never tell anyone to use spaces for indentation as much as you are unlikely to tell anyone to use tabs. As we know, there are programmers on both sides, so saying go with one is not an option.
    And short of saying, "use tabs," which is exactly what the article shouldn't (now that would be biased!), the read must make a decision for him/herself, which means listing pros and cons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  6. #21
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Incorrect how?
    Incorrect in the sense it fails to acknowledge that those pros and cons are irrelevant considering most IDEs these days create/delete/navigate through spaces created with the tab key as if they were tabs. But I'll get into a little more detail:

    >> Need to press space (or backspace) several times to add (or remove) enough indentation
    >> Not possible to travel between indentation levels easily
    >> Not possible to add or remove indentation from several lines at once

    This is not true anymore for a large spectrum of IDEs/Editors. Be they GUI or textual. The information could thus be considered incorrect due to being old. More it is also incorrect due to the fact it generalizes the exception. If anything it should start with "On a few remaining editors, "

    Furthermore, the 2nd and 3rd are a consequence of the first. It reiterates what you wrote on the first one and adds nothing. It seems the text is fishing for reasons.

    The whole thing could simply be written as something like this:

    On a few remaining editors the tab key cannot create space-character indentation. On these editors, it is probably not advised the use of indentation based on space characters. On any other editors where the user has an option to choose whether the tab key creates space characters or tab characters, one should use what they feel most comfortable with.

    It should absolutely not. I will never tell anyone to use spaces for indentation as much as you are unlikely to tell anyone to use tabs.
    Wrong. That is exactly where we differ. You are fundamentalist, whereas I don't care. I would tell them to use what they like most. It's just indentation. What do I care what they use as long as they follow the canonical rule, Choose one, be consistent.

    I told you before, and I will tell you again. It's just bloody indentation. Who cares? You want it to stay like that? Fine. Whatever. It doesn't stop me to say I find that information wrong, irrelevant and introducing too much detail into a theme that deserves little.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #22
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen View Post
    If the pros and cons are really not a fair evaluation than that is a significant flaw with the whole article indeed.
    It is my view, yes. However, quiet frankly it doesn't offend me if it stays. Just stating my opinion since the article smells when you get to that part. It is clear to the reader who has already a background on Editors of any kind (programming or not) that the person who wrote that doesn't really know what they are saying.

    I suggested a change on my previous post (in italics). I think it's a more appropriate manner of addressing the issue - if it really needs to be addressed, because as I said before I think it shouldn't even be addressed. It is so prone to judgment due to its intrinsic nature of being left mostly to the taste and acquired habits, that whatever is said about it in the form of pros and cons is bound to be wrong to some.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  8. #23
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Incorrect in the sense it fails to acknowledge that those pros and cons are irrelevant considering most IDEs these days create/delete/navigate through spaces created with the tab key as if they were tabs. But I'll get into a little more detail:

    >> Need to press space (or backspace) several times to add (or remove) enough indentation
    >> Not possible to travel between indentation levels easily
    >> Not possible to add or remove indentation from several lines at once

    This is not true anymore for a large spectrum of IDEs/Editors. Be they GUI or textual. The information could thus be considered incorrect due to being old. More it is also incorrect due to the fact it generalizes the exception. If anything it should start with "On a few remaining editors, "

    Furthermore, the 2nd and 3rd are a consequence of the first. It reiterates what you wrote on the first one and adds nothing. It seems the text is fishing for reasons.

    The whole thing could simply be written as something like this:

    On a few remaining editors the tab key cannot create space-character indentation. On these editors, it is probably not advised the use of indentation based on space characters. On any other editors where the user has an option to choose whether the tab key creates space characters or tab characters, one should use what they feel most comfortable with.
    I don't much about GUI support, but if it's true, it just blurs the lines between them yet more, which can make people even more confused on what to use.

    Wrong. That is exactly where we differ. You are fundamentalist, whereas I don't care. I would tell them to use what they like most. It's just indentation. What do I care what they use as long as they follow the canonical rule, Choose one, be consistent.
    Then if you omit the pros/cons, what do you propose people choose? Without some guided support, I don't know if they can all choose a style. That is why there is a pros/cons section because many will say "use tabs" and many will say "use spaces." Confusion!

    I told you before, and I will tell you again. It's just bloody indentation. Who cares? You want it to stay like that? Fine. Whatever. It doesn't stop me to say I find that information wrong, irrelevant and introducing too much detail into a theme that deserves little.
    Indentation is very important. And I can't stress enough how poor people seem to indent and how much pain it is to read such code. I think it is your kind of attitude that has made it into what it is: hey, it's indentation, who cares? It's more important to make our code work, but screw anyone but myself who tries to read it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #24
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I don't much about GUI support, but if it's true, it just blurs the lines between them yet more, which can make people even more confused on what to use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Then if you omit the pros/cons, what do you propose people choose? Without some guided support, I don't know if they can all choose a style. That is why there is a pros/cons section because many will say "use tabs" and many will say "use spaces." Confusion!
    You must be joking. You think people are so stupid they need to be tutored into choosing spaces or tabs!?

    Confusion!? What are you talking about? Get your act together. You didn't need to be tutored into choosing one or another. I didn't. That guy over there didn't too. And that girl on the other side didn't either. No one doesn't. They choose naturally.

    I think it is your kind of attitude that has made it into what it is: hey, it's indentation, who cares? It's more important to make our code work, but screw anyone but myself who tries to read it!
    Yes. Well, what can I say. I'm that way.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #25
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Indentation is very important. And I can't stress enough how poor people seem to indent and how much pain it is to read such code. I think it is your kind of attitude that has made it into what it is: hey, it's indentation, who cares? It's more important to make our code work, but screw anyone but myself who tries to read it!
    Mario F.'s point is: Choose one, be consistent., not that indentation does not matter at all.

    I agree with the evaluation that we may not actually need a comparison. Ultimately, we just need to compare well indented code with poorly indented code, point out the benefits of the former, the horror of the latter, and then suggest choosing either all spaces or all tabs and being consistent with that choice.
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  11. #26
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to start an argument, I was only bringing it up...

    > You must be joking. You think people are so stupid they need to be tutored into choosing spaces or tabs!?
    It's true a few people come onto this forum with code that has both spaces and tabs (possibly due to they copied it from somewhere), eg:

    Code:
    #include <stdio.h>
    
    int main(void)
    {
    	int a = 99;
    	char b = 'a';
        float c = 0.2f;
    
        if(a <= 99)
    		printf("a = &#37;d, b = %c, c = %f\n", a, b, c);
    
    	return 0;
    }
    As for moving the wiki, I guess we wait for dwks? If you read this dwks, make sure you read post #16. If you need a list of the 'work arounds'... I'd be happy to give them
    Last edited by zacs7; 02-14-2008 at 02:37 PM.

  12. #27
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    We can settle this on the discussion page, if people are fine with mosying over there. I think we can illustrate the wrongs, as laserlight said, and close with Mario's statement.

    In addition to the first paragraph:
    When "smart indenting" is turned off, it creates a potential problem for the plain text source file when it is used by a different program such as another editor or a web browser. Consider a source file which looks like this in a fancy editor:
    Code:
        if (search && source) {
            while (*search && *source) {
                if (*search == '\\') {       /**match escaped star**/
                    ++search;
                    match = *search == '*' && *search == *source;
    In a simple, plain text editor, if the same code looks like this:
    Code:
        if (search && source) {
    		while (*search && *source) {
    			if (*search == '\\') {       /**match escaped star**/
                    ++search;
                    match = *search == '*' && *search == *source;
    it is clear that the programmer failed to rely on editor features but continued to indent as if they were there. A bad thing, since the result is no consistency, and in effect, no indentation. This is an important reality for thread posters on cboard to face, because they will be frequently pasting their code around outside of their friendly editor.

    On a few remaining editors the tab key cannot create space-character indentation. On these editors, it is a good suggestion to avoid indentation based on space characters. On any other editors where the user has an option to choose whether the tab key creates space characters or tab characters, one should use what they feel most comfortable with. It will at least provide consistent plain text.
    Something like that?
    Last edited by whiteflags; 02-14-2008 at 02:38 PM.

  13. #28
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Yep. That would do just fine.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  14. #29
    Frequently Quite Prolix dwks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7
    Seriously, if you knew some of the 'work arounds' I had to do to get it working on sf.net -- I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be happy. On that subject, is anyone keeping backups? (If not, log-on to phpmyadmin and dump the SQL database, or tell me to do so). I'd say move it, because some of the security issues are pretty critical.
    I haven't backed it up yet -- nor will I be able to on this slow connection. Please, do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7
    As for moving the wiki, I guess we wait for dwks? If you read this dwks, make sure you read post #16. If you need a list of the 'work arounds'... I'd be happy to give them
    I did notice a few places you'd modified the Wiki when I was installing the logo . . . If you have a list, I'd be interested in seeing it -- but don't go and compose one just because I asked; I could always browse around the server to see what was changed.

    I guess if that's the case I should try to see if I can get the wiki running on my site. I will have a faster connection on Saturday (that's two days from now), so I can try setting it up then if you like. Though I might end up just giving you the password and letting you do it again.

    So I guess I'll need to set up a MySQL database . . . and should I upgrade the wiki while I'm at it? We did use an older version because of sf's PHP version, right? I wonder if it would be easy to transfer the data to a newer version of MediaWiki . . . .
    dwk

    Seek and ye shall find. quaere et invenies.

    "Simplicity does not precede complexity, but follows it." -- Alan Perlis
    "Testing can only prove the presence of bugs, not their absence." -- Edsger Dijkstra
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  15. #30
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    At the moment with the amount of content we have now we could just take a backup then start from scratch if necessary.
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    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

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