Religious overkill?

This is a discussion on Religious overkill? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Either way, she's been dubbed guilty before proven so. They're massing in the street wanting to cut her head off, ...

  1. #46
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Either way, she's been dubbed guilty before proven so. They're massing in the street wanting to cut her head off, and for what?

    Would you consider assault the same as blasphemy? In Australia the kids get off with a slap on the wrist for throwing rocks at police cars, or even assaulting police officers. And their argument? They don't know how to function in our society, because school is too hard and no-one told them how they should behave. We cut them slack, so the Sudanese should cut her slack, even while our laws are documented and plainly enforced and their's is made-up and implicit.

    I understand if you're Sudanese, but I'd consider it treason if you think she deserves to be punished for an obscene, undocumented rule. Even when they interviewed a Muslim boy in Sudan he said, "It's like a big red line, and she crossed it". And of-course he'd like her dead over some 'plainly evident, yet undocumented law'.

    I can't even go to a Sudanese dominant suburb 7km from my house, because there are frequent stabbings, assault on police and car jacking (in broad day-light). Most of them are mad, which is being stereotypical of me yes... but when you're dealing with a country you have to do so. Sudan wants her dead, not just a few people. I bet if you were over there in her shoes, you'd want a fair trial -- and people of the western world to support you.

    BTW,
    >I might vote for yours if I thought about that sort of thing.
    Do you mean, democracy? If so, I can see where your argument is coming from.
    Last edited by zacs7; 12-01-2007 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Spellingz

  2. #47
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> This post gets voted by me for Dumbest Post I've Read in This Topic.
    I might vote for yours if I thought about that sort of thing.
    You get second place in my vote. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> you think the teacher is supposed to stop and say, "Hold on there, little Muhammad. You
    >> can't name the Teddy bear after yourself because it's a bear and not a human like yourself.
    >> Doing so is punishable by 15 days in jail."
    Yes, of course. Why couldn't she? If they named the bear #$@!er I'm pretty sure she'd stop and say that they can't do that, so why is it any harder to stop them from practicing blasphemy. She's the teacher in charge of the class. It is her responsibility to make sure they follow the rules. You aren't going to hold the kids accountable, are you?
    You think naming the bear after a kid in the class is the same as naming the kid after some vulgar word?

    How is she supposed to know that allowing the kids to name the bear after a student is wrong?

    And if the muslim kids don't know it's blasphemous, then why should the non-muslim teacher know? And since when was she tasked with teaching them about islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> You tell me why a non-Muslim teacher is supposed to know more about stupid islamic laws more than the kids and parents.
    Because she lives in the country? Who says the parents knew? The kids are only 7 years old, are you sure you want to put the blame on them?
    Yes, I do want to blame the kids. I don't expect a muslim to tell my kids how to follow their religion, and I don't expect to teach their kids how to follow theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> western countries have idiots that want to try to explain these stupid actions
    I'm not sure you've been understanding the arguments. There is a big difference between saying the law itself makes sense and saying that as long as the law exists there's nothing wrong with them applying it in a reasonable fashion.
    Is there anything reasonable with wanting to kill the teacher over this? I fail to see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> Let's say it's the US or England, and some teacher has the kids vote on what to name the
    >> bear, and we had a child named after Jesus. If the kids voted to name it after their fellow
    >> student, would there be riots to kill the teacher?
    No, because naming a bear Jesus is not as significant of a sin in Christianity as naming a bear Muhammed is in Sudan.
    OK, so let's take it a step further. Let's say in my example the muslim teacher mutilated the teddy bear after naming it after a student named after Jesus and said things against Jesus and against Christianity. That's enough to consider it blasphemous.

    Would there be riots to kill the teacher? I still think not. We are way too tolerant and willing to allow warped islamic teachers to affect us! Stop and think! This is a classroom. They voted on what to name the bear. You think she's seriously supposed to think that it's wrong to name the bear after a kid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    >> The same people that are saying the actual teacher should be aware of these islamic laws
    >> are probably the same people that would say that in the equivalent example, she would
    >> not be expected to know any Christian rules if she was a muslim.
    Are you sure? The point is that they are the country's laws. And I would guess that if she were in a nation with laws based on Christian culture these same people would say that a Muslim should be held accountable for them as well.
    Considering we don't hold muslims to the same laws we hold our own people to, I have to say you're totally wrong. We give them all kinds of ridiculous freedoms to abuse our laws it's disgusting. The West is destroying itself from the inside out. Thinking ourselves to be open and tolerant, we are tearing ourselves down one step at a time.

    Reminds me of the case how that idiot woman in Florida wanted to have her driver's license picture not show her face due to religious reasons. So many reasons why that is stupid, and it raised controversy. Nevermind the fact that in real islamic countries, she wouldn't be allowed to drive, and nevermind the fact she was arrested before as a criminal and had her ugly picture taken before, but she seemed to think that somehow she was above the laws of the land she was in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    I completely agree that religious zealotry (of any faith) makes a society less tolerant. I am not saying that I think the law is a good one, or that I like the society that such a government seems to create. I am saying that complaints about this often seem to be based on one's own personal morals and convictions without respecting those of the Sudanese.
    This is the idiocy that makes you get 2nd place. Both you and the other person seem to think the woman deserves this, or if we say that the woman does NOT deserve this, somehow we are trampling on the Sudanese. Defending her is not necessarily attacking the Sudanese, and I fail to see your point.

    You think a complaint about these people wanting to kill a teacher over this is based on my "own personal morals and convictions without respecting those of the Sudanese"? Are you kidding me? Would you be happy if they actually killed her? How much respect are you willing to show them in the name of respect for their culture?

    The teacher should be deported for her own sake. It's about time people out there start thinking of her culture and her rights as a human being.

    We don't even necessarily give 15 days in jail if you get busted down drunk driving, but somehow people think that for not stopping the kids here in naming the bear after them, 15 days in jail is more than lenient. I think something is wrong here.

  3. #48
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    >> Either way, she's been dubbed guilty before proven so.
    Wasn't she convicted already after a trial? She was even acquitted of the more serious offense and convicted of the smaller one.

    >> Would you consider assault the same as blasphemy?
    Did you see the part where I said I don't think the law is a good one?

    >> their's is made-up and implicit
    Is it? It has defined maximum punishments. How could it be made up and implicit?

    >> I'd consider it treason if you think she deserves to be punished for an obscene, undocumented rule.
    Please provide evidence that it is an undocumented rule.

    >> Sudan wants her dead, not just a few people.
    It is just a few people. Only a couple hundred protested. How many people are in Sudan?

    >> I bet if you were over there in her shoes, you'd want a fair trial -- and people of the western world to support you.
    She did get a fair trial as far as I can see. She got convicted of the smaller offense and acquitted of the more serious charge. She got punished for her crime. The punishment was 15 days in jail and deportation. She wasn't punished with death.

    Am I missing something? The facts you seem to be basing you arguments on are very different than the facts in the few articles I've read about this issue.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    You think naming the bear after a kid in the class is the same as naming the kid after some vulgar word?
    I made an analogy, which means I think it is similar. And I didn't say I thought it was similar, I said they do. In fact, I hope you understand that blasphemy is probably considered much, much worse.

    Please remember that I am not saying that I agree with the law. I am trying to explain the importance they put on it. Using your values to judge the application of their laws doesn't make sense. Their laws are based on their values, so of course they should apply the laws based on their own values.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    How is she supposed to know that allowing the kids to name the bear after a student is wrong?
    It is the law of the country. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. You can ask for leniency because you didn't know the law, and I would hope that you would get it, but that doesn't mean you must get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    And if the muslim kids don't know it's blasphemous, then why should the non-muslim teacher know? And since when was she tasked with teaching them about islam?
    Are you are saying that 7-year olds should be held responsible and punished when they break allow but their teacher should not be punished for allowing it?
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Yes, I do want to blame the kids. I don't expect a muslim to tell my kids how to follow their religion, and I don't expect to teach their kids how to follow theirs.
    This is a law of the country, their religions are irrelevant to whether they must obey that law.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Is there anything reasonable with wanting to kill the teacher over this? I fail to see it.
    Did you honestly read my post or Thantos's and think that's what we're saying? If you think we're saying anything even remotely close to this, then you are completely misunderstanding. I am in no way defending the people who are protesting. I am merely defending the right of the government to apply one of their laws in a reasonable fashion, which it appears is what they did. I am also defending the right of a nation to make laws based on their values, and I am saying it is the responsibility of visitors to a country to respect their rules or accept the consequences if they break them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    OK, so let's take it a step further. Let's say in my example the muslim teacher mutilated the teddy bear after naming it after a student named after Jesus and said things against Jesus and against Christianity. That's enough to consider it blasphemous.

    Would there be riots to kill the teacher? I still think not. We are way too tolerant and willing to allow warped islamic teachers to affect us! Stop and think! This is a classroom. They voted on what to name the bear. You think she's seriously supposed to think that it's wrong to name the bear after a kid?
    Again, the sin you described is not as significant in our society as blasphemy is in theirs. Also again, I am not defending the protesters. I strongly disagree with their viewpoint. And again, it is her responsibility to both abide by the laws of the country she is in and also not allow her students to break them while under her supervision.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Considering we don't hold muslims to the same laws we hold our own people to, I have to say you're totally wrong. We give them all kinds of ridiculous freedoms to abuse our laws it's disgusting. The West is destroying itself from the inside out. Thinking ourselves to be open and tolerant, we are tearing ourselves down one step at a time.

    Reminds me of the case how that idiot woman in Florida wanted to have her driver's license picture not show her face due to religious reasons. So many reasons why that is stupid, and it raised controversy. Nevermind the fact that in real islamic countries, she wouldn't be allowed to drive, and nevermind the fact she was arrested before as a criminal and had her ugly picture taken before, but she seemed to think that somehow she was above the laws of the land she was in.
    I'm not aware of any circumstances where "we" (are you talking about America, "the West" or something else?) don't hold Muslims to the same laws as others. Was the woman who wanted her veil on in her driver's license allowed to do so?

    It is hard to take your comments here seriously. "Our own people"? What does that mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    This is the idiocy that makes you get 2nd place. Both you and the other person seem to think the woman deserves this, or if we say that the woman does NOT deserve this, somehow we are trampling on the Sudanese. Defending her is not necessarily attacking the Sudanese, and I fail to see your point.

    You think a complaint about these people wanting to kill a teacher over this is based on my "own personal morals and convictions without respecting those of the Sudanese"? Are you kidding me? Would you be happy if they actually killed her? How much respect are you willing to show them in the name of respect for their culture?

    The teacher should be deported for her own sake. It's about time people out there start thinking of her culture and her rights as a human being.

    We don't even necessarily give 15 days in jail if you get busted down drunk driving, but somehow people think that for not stopping the kids here in naming the bear after them, 15 days in jail is more than lenient. I think something is wrong here.
    This entire quote seems to be based on them misapprehension that I am defending the protesters that want her killed. So it makes no sense for me to respond since you might feel differently if you understood that I'm defending the right of a country to make laws and apply them even if I disagree with those laws.

    In fact, perhaps I should have stopped responding to your entire post when I made that realization. If you still feel your arguments apply after I clarified my position, feel free to say so.

  5. #50
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    So far no-one here seems to have remembered the genocide that was going on in Sudan not so long ago. That followed a civil war where the muslims tried to kill all the christians.

    In a country where murder seems to be the popular form of entertainment a 15 day jail sentence is nothing. To go to teach in a county that probably has the death sentence for not being muslim, without a deep understanding of the culture, is plain stupid. Especially when you're a British and your country is has invaded Iraq and Afghanistan; any excuse will do.

    When the day comes that everyone understands scientific method all religious tensions, and religion itself, will disappear.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    I made an analogy, which means I think it is similar. And I didn't say I thought it was similar, I said they do. In fact, I hope you understand that blasphemy is probably considered much, much worse.
    And I'm saying that they are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Please remember that I am not saying that I agree with the law. I am trying to explain the importance they put on it. Using your values to judge the application of their laws doesn't make sense. Their laws are based on their values, so of course they should apply the laws based on their own values.
    It is the law of the country. Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense. You can ask for leniency because you didn't know the law, and I would hope that you would get it, but that doesn't mean you must get it.
    You got a copy of that law somewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Are you are saying that 7-year olds should be held responsible and punished when they break allow but their teacher should not be punished for allowing it?
    This is a law of the country, their religions are irrelevant to whether they must obey that law.
    I'm saying that the parents should teach their kids if it was a mistake and the children didn't know it was considered wrong. So they go back to class the next day and tell the teacher they messed up and need to rename the bear. Bear is renamed Abdullah. End of story.

    Fair enough? No riots. No deaths. They get on with their lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Did you honestly read my post or Thantos's and think that's what we're saying?
    Thantos said he thought a 15 day jail sentence was deserved. That's stupid. For not stopping the kids naming a teddy bear after a fellow student? You're kidding me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Again, the sin you described is not as significant in our society as blasphemy is in theirs. Also again, I am not defending the protesters. I strongly disagree with their viewpoint. And again, it is her responsibility to both abide by the laws of the country she is in and also not allow her students to break them while under her supervision.
    You can't win with this type of arguing. You are saying she broke a law by not stopping children from naming a teddy bear and that merited 15 days in jail and possibly more. That's silly. You are arguing this completely backwards.

    Yes countries should be allowed to make their own laws, but they want to put her to death for something she didn't do. Somehow they think their kids are spotless for naming the bear, but the woman should have known. It's a pathetic excuse. They have to let go and realize this is not a real issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    I'm not aware of any circumstances where "we" (are you talking about America, "the West" or something else?) don't hold Muslims to the same laws as others. Was the woman who wanted her veil on in her driver's license allowed to do so?
    Yes, I'm talking about Western countries as I thought I specified more than once that was the comparison I was making.

    And yes, she was allowed to do so in Illinois and Florida until after 9/11 some time in November of that year when Florida finally got a little bit smarter and realized that allowing her to break the law in a matter of security was completely stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    It is hard to take your comments here seriously. "Our own people"? What does that mean?
    For someone defending the actions against this woman, it's amazing you find anything hard to take seriously.

    With referring to Western civilization, it was rather clear I was speaking of citizens of Western countries, particularly in this context of non-muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    This entire quote seems to be based on them misapprehension that I am defending the protesters that want her killed. So it makes no sense for me to respond since you might feel differently if you understood that I'm defending the right of a country to make laws and apply them even if I disagree with those laws.
    You said the objections raised were disrespectful, or at least without respect, to the Sudanese people and their culture. That was a rather ignorant thing to say. My objections are not against the Sudanese but against the stupidity of the people that want her punished for something she didn't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    In fact, perhaps I should have stopped responding to your entire post when I made that realization. If you still feel your arguments apply after I clarified my position, feel free to say so.
    With regard to her getting killed, it does sound that if she got killed, you would just chalk it up to her fault of being ignorant of the law that says she has to stop the kids from naming a teddy bear after a fellow student.

    BTW, I know zacs7 can fend for himself, but this quote needs to be addressed:

    >> Sudan wants her dead, not just a few people.
    It is just a few people. Only a couple hundred protested. How many people are in Sudan?
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle531449.ece

    The Liverpool mum of two - convicted of insulting Islam by calling the bear Mohammed - is being held at a secret location after a 10,000-strong mob took to Sudan's streets screaming: "Kill her, kill her."
    Bold emphasis mine. Only a couple hundred? Just a slightly higher number of people.

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071130/D8T88JT80.html

    Captain for one of the pictures:

    Thousands of Sudanese, many carrying knives and sticks, protest in Khartoum, Sudan, after prayers ...
    Yeah. This isn't just a small group of angry people.

  7. #52
    Dr Dipshi++ mike_g's Avatar
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    MacGyver: The Sun really is a fine taste in literature You really should accept that people in Sudan are different; I dont think anyone here would agree with locking someone up over the name of a teddy bear. If you don't like their laws don't go there. Its as simple as that.

  8. #53
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_g View Post
    MacGyver: The Sun really is a fine taste in literature
    I linked to two of the three stories on this matter from Drudge. You're welcome to find your own links to the story if you don't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_g View Post
    You really should accept that people in Sudan are different;
    Indeed. I'm in full agreement they are different. I don't think I argued differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_g View Post
    I dont think anyone here would agree with locking someone up over the name of a teddy bear.
    Thantos said he did. I think Daved is trying to say the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_g View Post
    If you don't like their laws don't go there. Its as simple as that.
    Indeed. I don't like their laws, and I don't plan on going there. I agree that the law of the land, in principle, should be respected. In some cases, some laws are ridiculous and wrong enough to break, but that is beyond the scope of this conversation.

    Nevertheless, what I'm arguing is that she didn't break one of their laws, and she certainly didn't merit the prison time, nor the death threats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    And I'm saying that they are wrong.
    My personal opinion is that the law is wrong as well. As long as you understand that to them it is fair, then you understand my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    You got a copy of that law somewhere?
    No, why do you ask? All I can go by is what has been reported and what I have read. Obviously if that information is wrong then my opinion might change, but what has been reported is that there is a clear law against naming something other than a person Muhammed. If you want me to believe otherwise I would appreciate links or references to evidence of that (preferably something other than the Sun).

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    I'm saying that the parents should teach their kids if it was a mistake and the children didn't know it was considered wrong. So they go back to class the next day and tell the teacher they messed up and need to rename the bear. Bear is renamed Abdullah. End of story.
    Did the parents even know that the kids named the bear Muhammed (honest question)? What if the crime was that the kids were cutting each other with scissors? Would you say the same thing in that situation? If not, then your issue is still with the law itself. You think the law is in appropriate. And again, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Thantos said he thought a 15 day jail sentence was deserved. That's stupid. For not stopping the kids naming a teddy bear after a fellow student? You're kidding me.
    That's not exactly what he said and I don't think he meant what you're reading into his comments. I think he is saying that within the context of the situation, the 15 day punishment is acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    You can't win with this type of arguing. You are saying she broke a law by not stopping children from naming a teddy bear and that merited 15 days in jail and possibly more. That's silly. You are arguing this completely backwards.

    Yes countries should be allowed to make their own laws, but they want to put her to death for something she didn't do. Somehow they think their kids are spotless for naming the bear, but the woman should have known. It's a pathetic excuse. They have to let go and realize this is not a real issue.
    Again, you misunderstand me. I disagree with the law. I am only defending the right of a country to make laws and enforce them in a reasonable manner. I am not defending protesters who think she should be put to death. How does this quote apply in any way to what I am saying? You also seem to be confused about the facts. The bolded part indicates that you think that the country wants to put her to death. The country that makes the laws is the same country that wants to send her to jail for 15 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    And yes, she was allowed to do so in Illinois and Florida until after 9/11 some time in November of that year when Florida finally got a little bit smarter and realized that allowing her to break the law in a matter of security was completely stupid.
    Ok, good. I don't think she should be allowed to have an ID card without showing her face.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    With referring to Western civilization, it was rather clear I was speaking of citizens of Western countries, particularly in this context of non-muslims.
    But there are many Muslim citizens of western countries. Are they considered "our own people"? Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is on this subject, and I don't like its undertones, so I think I'll ignore it from now on.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    You said the objections raised were disrespectful, or at least without respect, to the Sudanese people and their culture. That was a rather ignorant thing to say. My objections are not against the Sudanese but against the stupidity of the people that want her punished for something she didn't do.
    I think you and others have underestimated the significance of blasphemy in their culture. Perhaps "without respect" was a poor way of indicating that, I was having a hard time expressing what I meant there.

    But then you say that your objections are against the stupidity of people that want her punished for something she didn't do. Where did you get the idea that she didn't do it? The Sun article? Also, the people who want her punished are obviously assuming that she did do it. The protesters are probably too zealoted to make sure, but still, they wouldn't be making a big deal if they thought she was innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cAle531449.ece

    Bold emphasis mine. Only a couple hundred? Just a slightly higher number of people.

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071130/D8T88JT80.html

    Yeah. This isn't just a small group of angry people.
    I got a couple hundred from here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/wo...=1&oref=slogin

    I'm not familiar with The Sun, but from the look of its website I'd consider the Times to be more likely to be accurate. It's certainly possible the numbers were in the thousands. But still, saying that "Sudan wants her dead" is a ridiculous overstatement when the punishment handed down by the government of Sudan was 15 days in jail and when 99% of the people in the city failed to show up for the protest.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    With regard to her getting killed, it does sound that if she got killed, you would just chalk it up to her fault of being ignorant of the law that says she has to stop the kids from naming a teddy bear after a fellow student.
    Perhaps this gross misconception is coloring your response to my statements. Please remove this silly idea from your head, re-read what I've said explicitly, and then consider that maybe I am not some crazy fanatic advocating death for letting others name a teddy bear. I honestly think your opinion might change just a tiny bit if you understood what I was saying and not what you're afraid I am saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    My personal opinion is that the law is wrong as well. As long as you understand that to them it is fair, then you understand my point.
    Yes, I understand that they think it's fair. I don't think they are necessarily standing in the street thinking, "I'm a stupid nutcase that wants to kill an innocent woman." They are thinking more along the lines of, "We need to take vegeance on a blasphemer of our faith."

    So with that said, I don't care what they think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    No, why do you ask? All I can go by is what has been reported and what I have read. Obviously if that information is wrong then my opinion might change, but what has been reported is that there is a clear law against naming something other than a person Muhammed. If you want me to believe otherwise I would appreciate links or references to evidence of that (preferably something other than the Sun).
    I suspect this will be like the "clear law" that the the publishers and writers of the pictures in the Dutch papers were guilty of death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Did the parents even know that the kids named the bear Muhammed (honest question)?
    How would the story get out otherwise? It came from the school or parents I imagine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    What if the crime was that the kids were cutting each other with scissors?
    Then the kids would be bleeding and the teacher would take the scissors away, per school policy. This is something covered by all schools in any country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Would you say the same thing in that situation?
    No, I think you're comparing completely ridiculous examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    If not, then your issue is still with the law itself. You think the law is in appropriate. And again, I agree.
    I think she didn't actually commit any crime of being offensive to islam, hence, there was no crime, hence, these rioters need to get a life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    That's not exactly what he said and I don't think he meant what you're reading into his comments. I think he is saying that within the context of the situation, the 15 day punishment is acceptable.
    If he wishes to contradict me, he's well able to do it. I think he believes the 15 days were deserved as a "minor offense".

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Again, you misunderstand me. I disagree with the law. I am only defending the right of a country to make laws and enforce them in a reasonable manner. I am not defending protesters who think she should be put to death. How does this quote apply in any way to what I am saying? You also seem to be confused about the facts. The bolded part indicates that you think that the country wants to put her to death. The country that makes the laws is the same country that wants to send her to jail for 15 days.
    I have never said a country can't have their own laws. I have said that in this case I didn't think a crime was committed. If it's a crime to name a bear what they did, they should put the kids or the kids' parents in jail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Ok, good. I don't think she should be allowed to have an ID card without showing her face.

    But there are many Muslim citizens of western countries. Are they considered "our own people"? Anyway, I'm not sure what your point is on this subject, and I don't like its undertones, so I think I'll ignore it from now on.
    The point is that Western countries allow muslims more freedom than they should have, noticably way more than muslim countries allow for non-muslims.

    You used to be able to get a driver's license without showing your face as a female muslim. A Christian couldn't do that at the time. The concept of tolerance appears to be unknown in many muslim countries.

    Try to go into a muslim country and saying you're a Jew or a Christian and mention you're from a Western country.

    As for your comments of the muslim citizens, you totally missed my point. You may ignore this all you wish. I don't think I can get it through to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    I think you and others have underestimated the significance of blasphemy in their culture. Perhaps "without respect" was a poor way of indicating that, I was having a hard time expressing what I meant there.

    But then you say that your objections are against the stupidity of people that want her punished for something she didn't do. Where did you get the idea that she didn't do it? The Sun article? Also, the people who want her punished are obviously assuming that she did do it. The protesters are probably too zealoted to make sure, but still, they wouldn't be making a big deal if they thought she was innocent.
    So all you're trying to say is that they take it seriously. No freaking kidding. They are wrong, though.

    She didn't name the bear. She let the kids vote on what to name the bear. The kids voted on a name. She had no reason to object because it was a kid's name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    I got a couple hundred from here: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/wo...=1&oref=slogin

    I'm not familiar with The Sun, but from the look of its website I'd consider the Times to be more likely to be accurate. It's certainly possible the numbers were in the thousands. But still, saying that "Sudan wants her dead" is a ridiculous overstatement when the punishment handed down by the government of Sudan was 15 days in jail and when 99% of the people in the city failed to show up for the protest.
    The New York Times is trash.

    Edit: Ah, but it does say the parents complained, just like I said. Read your own articles. lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daved View Post
    Perhaps this gross misconception is coloring your response to my statements. Please remove this silly idea from your head, re-read what I've said explicitly, and then consider that maybe I am not some crazy fanatic advocating death for letting others name a teddy bear. I honestly think your opinion might change just a tiny bit if you understood what I was saying and not what you're afraid I am saying.
    I didn't say you advocated her death. Read it again. I said that if she died you would chalk it up to her fault, which is what others are suggesting, namley that she is somehow to blame for the ordeal she is in.
    Last edited by MacGyver; 12-01-2007 at 08:10 PM.

  11. #56
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    Why are so many of your direct responses to me referring to the protesters? I have said repeatedly that I disagree with them and am not defending them in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    I have never said a country can't have their own laws. I have said that in this case I didn't think a crime was committed. If it's a crime to name a bear what they did, they should put the kids or the kids' parents in jail.
    Ok, this might be a valid opinion. We don't know for sure the text of the law. We aren't Sudanese lawyers so we are in no position to interpret the law. Based on what I've read I'm guessing that they applied the law in a reasonably fashion. You disagree and think that they are stretching the law to apply to the teacher when it shouldn't. That's fair. I've given my reasoning on why I think it makes sense for the teacher to be held accountable for her students actions. You haven't exactly rebutted that, but you still might be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    She didn't name the bear. She let the kids vote on what to name the bear. The kids voted on a name. She had no reason to object because it was a kid's name.
    She did have reason to object, because it was against the law! If a student breaks the law, it is up to the teacher to not allow it. I cannot believe you are arguing otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    Edit: Ah, but it does say the parents complained, just like I said. Read your own articles. lol.
    First, when I said "honest question" I meant that I did not know the answer, not that I was assuming an answer one way or the other. If you're saying that I should take the word of the Times article about this, then it backs up my story. The parents found out afterwards, and reported the problem. So the kids broke the law, the teacher allowed it. The parents had no chance to stop the kids from breaking the law until after it already happened. So your assertion earlier that the parents should be responsible for preventing the crime doesn't hold water. It had already occurred before they found out about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    I didn't say you advocated her death. Read it again. I said that if she died you would chalk it up to her fault, which is what others are suggesting, namley that she is somehow to blame for the ordeal she is in.
    You are saying that "she is to blame for the ordeal she is in" is the same as "if she died you would chalk it up to her fault". The ordeal she is in is not death! There is a humongous leap from 15 days in jail to death. Yes, I and others are saying that she is to blame for getting 15 days in jail. We are not saying she would be to blame if an angry mob had her killed, or if the judge had sentenced her to death. If you post again on this subject please make me believe that you understand this important difference. If you disagree with me that she has no one to blame but herself for 15 days in jail and deportation, then please address that, and not the nonsense about being killed that I have repeatedly indicated I don't agree with.

    Edit: Also, if you think I think that she is to blame for receiving death threats, then you are still mistaken. The idiots making the death threats are to blame for that.

  12. #57
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Shortly, Sudan is biting the hand that feeds it. Way to go for a third world country...

    I still think they are violating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And so, I won't even discuss about the laws of Sudan, because they conflict with the Highest Law Ever.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

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    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    No use arguing anymore, what's done is done. Daved can have his opinion, we live in free counties... at least it won't land him in 15 days of prison time

  14. #59
    the hat of redundancy hat nvoigt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver View Post
    I said that if she died you would chalk it up to her fault, which is what others are suggesting, namley that she is somehow to blame for the ordeal she is in.
    But she is. She was voluntarily entering a country that is known to be ruled by totalitarian, religious madmen. You don't just move to China, criticize the communist party and cry foul when they arrest you. And you don't teach in a country with islamic laws and a state of undeclared civil war and/or genocide and suspect fair or equal treatment.


    This is the good samatarian news network with a flash report from Israel: CSI Bethlehem investigating on a unrelated case found shocking facts about Jesus. Contrary to popular belief, he did not die filthy rich of old age while having sex with a girl 60 years younger than himself on the beach. Recent advances in forensic woodworking allowed for a spectacular new view on Christs last days. Rumor has it, that he was indeed crucified. Yes, crucified, despite all his good acts. Maybe we should rethink what we heard about good deeds and rewards. Maybe Gods payback point system is only valid after one's death.


    Ok, really. It's called good deed for a reason. Not because you get stinking rich, not because you get all the girls. No! Because it's ........ing dangerous and you might get killed, whipped, imprisoned or whatever by raving religious madmen all along the way. No matter where. Want to be a nurse in Lybia ? Having fun as a rape victim in Saudi Arabia ? Teach poor children in Sudan ? Don't! Or be prepared to get killed.

    You cannot "help" those people by going there. They die in droves. And if someone goes there to help, maybe they will die in (droves -10). Or (droves -100). But if they don't rise up against this oppression, they will die, no matter how many teachers or ricebags or wheat we send. There is only two ways how they can get rid of their oppressors. Either they rise up, or someone conquers them. And we have long ago given up on conquering other nations, so there aren't many alternatives left.

    Maybe they had risen up long ago, if we didn't pump in just enough sumplies and aid to keep life barely bearable. That's easy to say, sitting in front of my desk, with a small mountain of prescribed cold medicine packages in front of me for 2 measly days of flu. It would probably last a year for an african hospital. And if I sent it over it might help two or three people. But what for ? So they can be oppressed for another decade ? No, for the big picture and a lasting solution, people have to help themselves or ask for help themselves. And I don't mean a dictator asking for "humanitarian aid" to build a fifth palace.
    hth
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  15. #60
    and the Hat of Clumsiness GanglyLamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nvoigt View Post
    Ok, really. It's called good deed for a reason. Not because you get stinking rich, not because you get all the girls. No! Because it's ........ing dangerous and you might get killed, whipped, imprisoned or whatever by raving religious madmen all along the way. No matter where. Want to be a nurse in Lybia ? Having fun as a rape victim in Saudi Arabia ? Teach poor children in Sudan ? Don't! Or be prepared to get killed.

    You cannot "help" those people by going there. They die in droves. And if someone goes there to help, maybe they will die in (droves -10). Or (droves -100). But if they don't rise up against this oppression, they will die, no matter how many teachers or ricebags or wheat we send. There is only two ways how they can get rid of their oppressors. Either they rise up, or someone conquers them. And we have long ago given up on conquering other nations, so there aren't many alternatives left.
    I totally agree, 5 years ago I embarked on a mission to Nigeria (known as one of the most corrupt nations in the world). I was going to do good deeds there as well, and I did for one year long.
    Everything went well for 8 months ,then all of a sudden I was threatened at gun point with a full automatic rifle 10 cm away from my nose to comply to whatever the policemen told me to do. And all of this because I just said out loud what everyone in the country was thinking at that time (election wise etc).

    I made a binary choice that evening while i stood there all alone with these policemen around me(all of a sudden everyone who was around me was no longer to be seen). Comply and live on or dont comply and end up dead somewhere in a country that is thousands of kilometers away from my home where I had nothing to seek in the first place.

    I had no busines being there at all, just doing a "good deed"... I've matured since then, and although I would still go on adventure like this, I will not do it again without the proper preparation (reading thoroughly on the country its political regime, economics, culture etc etc etc ). And since then I know when to shut up and leave my principles and values behind just to save my ass.

    It is also trough these eyes that i look at all the things going on in the world today, one country invades another to look after their own safety or to create a safe environment in the invaded country... I'm glad I am not the one creating that safety in a country that is thousands of kilometers away from the country where I belong!

    (btw i was teaching people to work with computers - so no palace building going on at all there )
    Last edited by GanglyLamb; 12-03-2007 at 01:28 PM.

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