Religious overkill?

This is a discussion on Religious overkill? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I think that she's an evil .......... and she should have her head cut off. Allahu ahkbar....

  1. #31

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    I think that she's an evil .......... and she should have her head cut off. Allahu ahkbar.
    I'm not immature, I'm refined in the opposite direction.

  2. #32
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thantos View Post
    While I don't share Sudan's view of using religious law in such a way I don't see what the problem is. The teacher should have known what the country's laws were before going there. If she was unwilling to follow the laws then she shouldn't have gone. If she was unaware of the laws then that just shows poor planning.

    15 days sounds about right for a minor offense.
    I suppose there is no statement in the law that "teddy bears can't be named..." so what the government (or whatever they call it) takes as a religious offence is totally decided by the people running the country rather than the law. Then she should have acquired the biography of all the important goverment and judge system related people there??

    I still think they are violating human rights...
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  3. #33
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    While I'm sure there is no law specific to teddy bears there very well might be laws that regulate naming.

  4. #34
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Law #3956: Don't name things Muhammad.

    BS, they name their children Muhammad. She's teaching them, they could at least respect that.

    Where do you draw the line? For example there was a lot of commotion in Australian schools if Muslims should be able to wear turbans. I say no, I can't wear my hat, just like I can't name my teddy what I want.
    Last edited by zacs7; 11-30-2007 at 03:01 PM.

  5. #35
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    Yeah, talk about blown out of proportion. Especially considering the fact that it was the students (as I've read) that proposed the name. Granted that it may have upset some people but comon, even if ignorance of the law is not a valid reason under most circumstanses this is one of those instances.

    It would appear to be a law that is distinct to specific countries of certain religous backgrounds. So, if they do actually carry out the punishment, I'd think that there'd be lawsuits.

    Were the case different (such as someone committing a "honour" killing in Canada) then I believe that the law should be expressed to it's fullest extent because laws against murder are in practically every single country in the world (even in Sudan). Furthermore, it is an extremely serious offense in that it causes loss of life which cannot be replaced. An insult however can be withdrawn and apologized though.


    Ummm.... I'm pretty sure Britain doesn't pay taxes to the Catholic Church, especially considering the fact that Britain seperated from the Catholic Church and formed the Anglican Church in the 14-16th century (date?). So, I think you're thinking more about either France or Canada (yes, in Canada, particularly Ontario, Catholic private schools get funding).

  6. #36
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    >Where do you draw the line? For example there was a lot of commotion in Australian schools if Muslims should be able to wear turbans.
    Well the difference is that if you break code on the school uniform then you're sent home, not put in jail or fined something. In my mind that is a reasonable request. I really don't understand why Muslims in Australia want to wear turbins in school but that's beside the point. I understand the school's position.

    I consider a turbin ceremonial dress, no one has a reason to wear such a thing in a public environment like the schools. Dress appropriately for church and masque and dress appropriately for everywhere else.

    Lots of religions have ceremonial items or clothing that are sacred and don't need to be put on display constantly. Christians have beads. If someone just whips out a rosary and prays at public school then you better believe that just as much ........ will hit the fan and that's hypocritical. I refuse to give anyone special treatment because they want to advertise who they are unless we can guarantee the same rights to everyone.

  7. #37
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    > I refuse to give anyone special treatment because they want to advertise who they are unless we can guarantee the same rights to everyone.

    That's my point, for example -- I couldn't wear a necklace with a cross on it at school, why should they be allowed their turbans?

    My point is, they're obviously treating her like this because She's British, a woman, and possibly non-Muslim. She didn't tell the children to name the teddies Muhammad.

    That's my opinion, no-one flame me for having it.

  8. #38
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    It wasn't a flame dude. At least we agree.

  9. #39
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Nah, I know

    Just making sure someone doesn't come along with facts that blow my argument out of the water. Ie, Future proofing myself from potential arguments.

  10. #40
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt this British lady even has an opinion of Mohammud the prophet, even in the event that she ignored cultural values, and simply allowed it, like Thantos seems to think. I apologize if I misunderstand you Thantos. How odd that cultural indifference is the same as blasphemy. :-\

    But it's just as easy to imagine a scenario where she didn't let the kids name the bear Mohammud and got in as much trouble. It's a sad state of affairs. The crime is pretty ambiguous to me.

    World peace without the Middle East anyone?

  11. #41
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    eh, i think that it's just one big misunderstanding all around.
    She didnt know the religions rules on the subject.
    and she was only trying to let the kids have fun when they named it.

    The government shouldnt be this upset.
    They could just ask her to rename the bear.
    I'm sure she would be more then happy to do it.

    [disclaimer: i bring absolutely no knowledge of the islamic religion, these are just my thoughts on the matter, and yes, i know they're wishfull thinking]

  12. #42
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thantos View Post
    While I don't share Sudan's view of using religious law in such a way I don't see what the problem is. The teacher should have known what the country's laws were before going there. If she was unwilling to follow the laws then she shouldn't have gone. If she was unaware of the laws then that just shows poor planning.

    15 days sounds about right for a minor offense.
    This post gets voted by me for Dumbest Post I've Read in This Topic.

    Considering the kids voted on what to name the bear, and some kid wanted it named after himself, and the vote of the kids was such that the name stuck, you think the teacher is supposed to stop and say, "Hold on there, little Muhammad. You can't name the Teddy bear after yourself because it's a bear and not a human like yourself. Doing so is punishable by 15 days in jail."?

    Apparently that's what a lot of idiots over there think. They're not punishing her for actually naming the bear. They're punishing her for not correcting the kids in deciding to name the bear what they did.

    You tell me why a non-Muslim teacher is supposed to know more about stupid islamic laws more than the kids and parents.

    Islamic countries are in a mess over stupid things, and western countries have idiots that want to try to explain these stupid actions. You can't explain them. The countries are messed up.

  13. #43
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    I still don't understand why you can name a child Muhammad yet not a bear?

    Most of these countries are still 3rd world, that's no coincidence.

  14. #44
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm just wrong and see if differently because I'm sick of what seems to be unequal weights and measures.

    Think about it from another angle. Let's say it's the US or England, and some teacher has the kids vote on what to name the bear, and we had a child named after Jesus. If the kids voted to name it after their fellow student, would there be riots to kill the teacher? Personally, I disagree with naming your kids that, but it does happen. I wouldn't like the bear being named it either. The New Testament says that the name of Jesus is unique, etc. etc..

    With that said, I wouldn't think this is some conspiracy of some muslim teacher to poison the minds of the kids. For crying out loud the kids voted! It's not like kids were brainwashed by the teacher. I hardly think we (ie. The West) would want the teacher killed or jailed. It's rather silly.

    The same people that are saying the actual teacher should be aware of these islamic laws are probably the same people that would say that in the equivalent example, she would not be expected to know any Christian rules if she was a muslim.

    Remember, we're talking about the state of things when pictures of their supposed prophet cause riots that kill people. Until these countries actually wake up, and many of their supposed religious leaders stop calling for jihad and beheadings, we will have the same type of problems we had with the catholics during the Dark Ages. It's very ugly when ignorant masses follow the teachings of evil men.

  15. #45
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    >> I still don't understand why you can name a child Muhammad yet not a bear?
    Because naming a child Muhammed honors the prophet, but naming a play thing Muhammed does the opposite. It trivializes the sacredness of Muhammed. The difference should be pretty obvious.

    >> This post gets voted by me for Dumbest Post I've Read in This Topic.
    I might vote for yours if I thought about that sort of thing.

    >> you think the teacher is supposed to stop and say, "Hold on there, little Muhammad. You
    >> can't name the Teddy bear after yourself because it's a bear and not a human like yourself.
    >> Doing so is punishable by 15 days in jail."
    Yes, of course. Why couldn't she? If they named the bear #$@!er I'm pretty sure she'd stop and say that they can't do that, so why is it any harder to stop them from practicing blasphemy. She's the teacher in charge of the class. It is her responsibility to make sure they follow the rules. You aren't going to hold the kids accountable, are you?

    >> You tell me why a non-Muslim teacher is supposed to know more about stupid islamic laws more than the kids and parents.
    Because she lives in the country? Who says the parents knew? The kids are only 7 years old, are you sure you want to put the blame on them?

    >> western countries have idiots that want to try to explain these stupid actions
    I'm not sure you've been understanding the arguments. There is a big difference between saying the law itself makes sense and saying that as long as the law exists there's nothing wrong with them applying it in a reasonable fashion.

    >> Let's say it's the US or England, and some teacher has the kids vote on what to name the
    >> bear, and we had a child named after Jesus. If the kids voted to name it after their fellow
    >> student, would there be riots to kill the teacher?
    No, because naming a bear Jesus is not as significant of a sin in Christianity as naming a bear Muhammed is in Sudan.

    >> The same people that are saying the actual teacher should be aware of these islamic laws
    >> are probably the same people that would say that in the equivalent example, she would
    >> not be expected to know any Christian rules if she was a muslim.
    Are you sure? The point is that they are the country's laws. And I would guess that if she were in a nation with laws based on Christian culture these same people would say that a Muslim should be held accountable for them as well.

    I completely agree that religious zealotry (of any faith) makes a society less tolerant. I am not saying that I think the law is a good one, or that I like the society that such a government seems to create. I am saying that complaints about this often seem to be based on one's own personal morals and convictions without respecting those of the Sudanese.
    Last edited by Daved; 12-01-2007 at 01:55 PM.

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