IE6

This is a discussion on IE6 within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Pendragon Because it costs money and, more often than not, the 'better' functionality will either be redundant ...

  1. #16
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,537
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Because it costs money and, more often than not, the 'better' functionality will either be redundant or lost on them depending on how good your sales person is.
    That's the message to the user - because it costs them nothing. And Firefox is faster, more secure, supports extensions and best of all - it costs nothing. The user can try it and use, however long they want, and pay not a single dime. So why not try it? Convert IE users to FF or Opera users.

    It *is* possible to build pages with no special cases. It gets harder particularly when it comes to IE5 but it is possible. I've had a lot of practise.

    IE7 supports a lot more than it's predecessors and the remaining issues were going to overflow to the next version or through fixes although I don't have details beyond the release speech for IE7.
    IE7 doesn't support display: block CSS which is quite handy when you have a lot of tables. I'm not sure how well and good it's to make a site without tables and only CSS for layout when it comes to IE.
    So far as I see it, you're throwing away a lot of good functionality to make it compatible with IE.

    And you know how many users like visual effects? Well, IE doesn't support the standard opacity CSS, but FF and Opera does. I'm aware IE has its own effects, but they're not standard and will only work on IE while standards WON'T work on IE. Quite infuriating.

  2. #17
    Meow Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Swindon, UK
    Posts
    724
    People as a rule don't like change and if, as I said, they weren't particularly computer-literate you are not going to be able to persuade them to try something different when what they have works perfectly well for what they want.

    >The user can try it and use, however long they want, and pay not a single dime.

    ...and how much does it cost to use IE?

    Using tables for layout is highly unpleasant and is not permitted for a DDA-(Disability Discrimination Act)compliant page as it interferes with screen readers and other accessibility tools.

    >So far as I see it, you're throwing away a lot of good functionality to make it compatible with IE.

    Using tables for layout? Css-effects? This is what constitutes 'good functionality'?

    Yes, users like pretty pages. This is what graphic designers, flash (if you really like that sort of thing) and javascript for dynamic content are for. Plus, these options will mostly work across the board. Why limit yourself?

  3. #18
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,537
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    People as a rule don't like change and if, as I said, they weren't particularly computer-literate you are not going to be able to persuade them to try something different when what they have works perfectly well for what they want.
    And that's why you have commercial, yes? It's "safer" and it's also "faster."
    Yes, maybe not all will use it, but some will, and eventually it will help spread the work more quickly.
    Alternatively, if something on the site isn't right because someone made a mistake, blame it on Microsoft not following standards and promote Opera/FF while fixing the problem.

    >The user can try it and use, however long they want, and pay not a single dime.

    ...and how much does it cost to use IE?
    Nothing - and that's the thing. Why use something that costs? If you mentioned, try X, it's much better, but it costs Y. The user probably is not going to change, yes? But as long as it's free, it's more accessible to try and use. Pay for something you might not like? I'd rather not and I'm sure many others agree - so being free elememinates that problem.

    Using tables for layout is highly unpleasant and is not permitted for a DDA-(Disability Discrimination Act)compliant page as it interferes with screen readers and other accessibility tools.

    >So far as I see it, you're throwing away a lot of good functionality to make it compatible with IE.

    Using tables for layout? Css-effects? This is what constitutes 'good functionality'?

    Yes, users like pretty pages. This is what graphic designers, flash (if you really like that sort of thing) and javascript for dynamic content are for. Plus, these options will mostly work across the board. Why limit yourself?
    Indeed, and how to make compatible pages when the CSS won't work across the board because of IE's lacking functionality?
    As for effects, again CSS makes it difficult.
    And hey, while we're at it - if a user is using IE6, why not promote FF/Opera, because compared to IE6, it's much more secure and renders pages much more correctly. But the key point would be security. IE6 is very unsecure.

  4. #19
    Meow Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Swindon, UK
    Posts
    724
    >Alternatively, if something on the site isn't right because someone made a mistake, blame it on Microsoft not following standards and promote Opera/FF while fixing the problem.

    Microsoft didn't write the code. I did... and I get paid a lot of money to do so. Yes, if something is either impossible or proves not cost/time-effective to fix then the step most likely to be taken is that the design is altered to allow for it but that's only happened once in my own experience.

    >and how to make compatible pages when the CSS won't work across the board because of IE's lacking functionality?

    It is possible to make pages that work across Firefox, IE and Opera. I have done it, it's part of my job like many other professional web developers.

    >if a user is using IE6, why not promote FF/Opera,

    When you say 'a user' what do you actually mean? I can 'promote' particular pieces of software to my family and friends. I can make suggestions to my boss (who would probably, and rightly, laugh in my face). Even if he did take me seriously and it did get to higher-level management are not going to go to their thousands of customers and suggest that their systems would be best viewed on so-and-so a browser. The first thing they're going to say is 'Why?'.

  5. #20
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,537
    When I say "user," it could be your family (who should be the easiest to teach since you're a professional web designer) and, of course, those who view the website.

  6. #21
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    9,596
    OpenSource is a good idea and free browsers are nice but in the end it is he who can exploit technology the quickest and the broadest who wins.

    Microsoft has done both and thus companies normally develop under their OS and thus use their products as the standard for if their application works or not. Since 8 out of 10 households will use some version of IE it is safe to assume that if your page works on IE you are at the very least providing your service to 80% of the population who owns a browser.

    It just comes down to economics and it's still the guys with the money that get favored. Regardless of how you feel about Microsoft the truth is they are the dominant force in operating systems and in PCs. If it runs on a Microsoft product you are pretty much guaranteed a lot of users will be able to use your software and/or your website.

    And I dunno about Pendragon but in my line of work the only promoting I see is done by people far higher in the food chain than I. In fact I let the company decide when and how they want to do things and when it's all figured out....I simply provide what they want in code.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 11-23-2007 at 04:55 PM.

  7. #22
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    7,239
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    Using tables for layout is highly unpleasant and is not permitted for a DDA-(Disability Discrimination Act)compliant page as it interferes with screen readers and other accessibility tools.
    So now we're to decide conformance with law based on whether some probably crappy screen-reader program can deal with something? I didn't know that ABC Screen Reader Corp (or whatever) had suddenly become the arbiter of what is LEGAL.

  8. #23
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    21,593
    So now we're to decide conformance with law based on whether some probably crappy screen-reader program can deal with something? I didn't know that ABC Screen Reader Corp (or whatever) had suddenly become the arbiter of what is LEGAL.
    That brings on mind: on technical grounds, what is stopping screen reader software from being able to distinguish tables used for layout and tables used to markup tabular data?
    C + C++ Compiler: MinGW port of GCC
    Version Control System: Bazaar

    Look up a C++ Reference and learn How To Ask Questions The Smart Way

  9. #24
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    8,893
    It would be a heuristic decision that could fail and thus swallow proper tabular data. But you have a point. It should be possible to develop a pretty good heuristic.

    Unfortunately, screen readers are far too underdeveloped as it is.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  10. #25
    Meow Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Swindon, UK
    Posts
    724
    They are... but is there enough of an audience to warrant spending the money to update it? and with the DDA rules in place now there is no real need.

    On a personal note I don't think it's a bad design decision to dismiss tables for layout unless what your building really does rely on it. It can be very messy.

    [edit]It should also be noted that the Disability Discrimination Act was legislated by the British Government. I don't know if similar laws apply elsewhere in the world. [/edit]
    Last edited by Pendragon; 11-24-2007 at 05:52 AM.

  11. #26
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    7,657
    It should also be noted that the Disability Discrimination Act was legislated by the British Government. I don't know if similar laws apply elsewhere in the world.
    Most of the world's leading nations passed something similar I bet. In my country we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, which took effect in 1992. It covers many of the same things.

  12. #27
    Meow Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Swindon, UK
    Posts
    724
    When I say "user," it could be your family (who should be the easiest to teach since you're a professional web designer) and, of course, those who view the website.
    When software is your bread and butter I think it highly unlikely you will retain your current sentiment.

    Most of the world's leading nations passed something similar I bet. In my country we have the Americans with Disabilities Act, which took effect in 1992. It covers many of the same things.
    Ah, I thought so. However, I don't think it's much of a burden as implied. It does create consistency in design and across-the-board compatability is no bad thing.

  13. #28
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,537
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
    When software is your bread and butter I think it highly unlikely you will retain your current sentiment.
    When it's your bread and butter, you are likely to be frusted with IE with its lack and disregard for the standard, often makign sure that you have to follow very strict rules or use workarounds to make it work in all three browsers.
    What if you could just write standards compatible code and it would work in all three?

  14. #29
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    When it's your bread and butter, you are likely to be frusted with IE with its lack and disregard for the standard, often makign sure that you have to follow very strict rules or use workarounds to make it work in all three browsers.
    What if you could just write standards compatible code and it would work in all three?
    90% of the code I'm writing now is for the web of which a significant portion is HTML/CSS/Javascript.

    I would love if all browsers rendered things the same way. As it stands the three main browsers that I test with all have their unique tweaks.

    How things are to be laid out is actually very poorly defined and a lot is left up to the implementation.

    Unlike compiled programs, browsers cannot simply throw up an error message because something is wrong with the code. It has to try and handle the error. Different browsers handle things differently.

    Now as far as IE6 is concerned: While I'd love to ignore it I simply cannot. The majority share of browsers is still IE. At work I'm suppose to use IE and anything I do on the intranet has to work for IE. For the internet sites I make sure it works in as many browsers as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    It would be a heuristic decision that could fail and thus swallow proper tabular data. But you have a point. It should be possible to develop a pretty good heuristic.

    Unfortunately, screen readers are far too underdeveloped as it is.
    I'm not sure how much screen readers read the screen and how much they read the underlying HTML. I know one thing I'm suppose to add to pages is a link near the beginning of HTML that skips all the menu contents and goes straight to the main content of the page. This leads me to believe a lot of it is just reading the HTML. If this is the case I think excessive use of nested tables to provide layout control would cause the information to be presented in a nonsensical form when read from the HTML.

  15. #30
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    22,537
    Quote Originally Posted by Thantos View Post
    Now as far as IE6 is concerned: While I'd love to ignore it I simply cannot. The majority share of browsers is still IE. At work I'm suppose to use IE and anything I do on the intranet has to work for IE. For the internet sites I make sure it works in as many browsers as possible.
    Now there's something - since companies are so zelous about security - why use IE?

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. Where Can I DL IE6?
    By mike_g in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-10-2008, 12:30 PM
  2. opening php files in IE6
    By Micko in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-06-2006, 12:16 PM
  3. Try upgrading IE6
    By xizor in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-07-2003, 04:57 AM
  4. IE6 Favorites
    By confuted in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-21-2003, 03:12 PM
  5. IE6 prob
    By dP munky in forum Tech Board
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-05-2003, 10:31 PM

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21