Just when you thought Bush couldn't surprise you...

This is a discussion on Just when you thought Bush couldn't surprise you... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; >> It always amazes me that people start serious discussions here, and then when the subject matter reflects the seriousness ...

  1. #31
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    >> It always amazes me that people start serious discussions here, and then when the subject matter reflects the seriousness of the subject, people revert to saying it's a programming forum, with a given reasoning being that we shouldn't discuss something from so serious an angle.

    In this case you are talking about two different people. Just because one, two or ten people want a serious discussion, does not make it inappropriate, especially in this forum, for others to chime in with less than completely serious responses. Nobody said that you cannot discuss something from a serious angle. I only challenged you for calling out someone who chooses not to join the serious side of the discussion.

    Sometimes people are extra sensitive to certain situations for whatever reason. If that's the case here, simply asking people not to joke would be acceptable. Otherwise, I think this is the wrong place to expect everybody to be completely serious.

  2. #32
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Ok... I'll make an effort...

    > too many people are willing to let Mr. Libby fry and rot because they just don't give a care

    Naturally you don't match in kind your worry for the Plame's couple. Understandable considering your obvious position on this matter.

    > Would you prefer to debate a weak-minded opponent who is unsure of his present position?

    Of course! You said so yourself... where is it?... ah! here... "More often than not, I debate to change the mind of the people who are ignorant of the issues but watching said debate."

    > You can better tell if your position can withstand scrutiny, when dealing with a knowledgable and able adversary, though I do not claim to be one.

    If you don't claim to be one, why the adjectives on your initial post? I'm confused.

    > But such is life.

    Life is thankfully a lot more, at least to me than debating passionately about some person I don't know in a country not my own. But I'll do you the effort and tell you what I think (dispassionately)

    First a disclaimer: I'm not American. I was once called one. Or rather said to look like an American. I did take great offense at the time since I was spending my vacations in a trailer park. I'm an European, Portuguese to be more exact.

    And that is my bias. You see... at least over here the system is a lot different. A president or a prime-minister commenting on a judge decision would see him out the door next elections. The separation between the judicial and executive power is very dear to the society in general.

    Naturally there are presidential pardons just like over there. But these are a lot more complicated than simply the president deciding this person or that person should be pardoned. It happens once an year, by christmas time if memory serves me right.

    It is however impossible for a president to pardon someone from the executive. It's like a contest; everyone can buy the raffles, except for the employees.

    So... anyways... Mr Libby faced trial. He had an opportunity to defend himself which he did as you and I (yes, there was coverage over here) know. He was convicted of perjury. And not you, or I or Bush can change that. It's all fine you say there was no crime. But then go the extra mile if you please and condemn not only the left wing but also the entire American judicial system. Oh and Bush too. Since nowhere he says Libby didn't commit perjury. Unless you are saying perjury is not a crime.

    And what happens next? The president pushes the judicial system aside and declares he knows better and the sentence was too harsh. Naturally, things can't be that different over there than they are here. And thinks like appeals, higher instance courts and even the Supreme court happen to exist in America, don't they? Don't answer.

    So... in the end, a President overpowered the judicial system and took matters on his own hands. On some obscure African country we would call this ... But in America you say he did the right thing.
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  3. #33
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    I hate politics.All polliticians are liers and ..............s.That all from me on this thread.
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  4. #34
    Just Lurking Dave_Sinkula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    So... anyways... Mr Libby faced trial. He had an opportunity to defend himself which he did as you and I (yes, there was coverage over here) know. He was convicted of perjury. And not you, or I or Bush can change that. It's all fine you say there was no crime. But then go the extra mile if you please and condemn not only the left wing but also the entire American judicial system. Oh and Bush too. Since nowhere he says Libby didn't commit perjury. Unless you are saying perjury is not a crime.
    Obstructing justice in the prosecution of a non-crime? Lying under oath in testimony related to the prosecution of a non-crime?

    Stalin, among others, had show trials too. Those folks had an opportunity to 'defend' themselves.
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  5. #35
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Ok... I'll make an effort...
    Much obliged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    > too many people are willing to let Mr. Libby fry and rot because they just don't give a care

    Naturally you don't match in kind your worry for the Plame's couple. Understandable considering your obvious position on this matter.
    Why should I feel sorry for Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson?

    It was Plame that moved to get her husband into Africa, and Wilson that threw his hat into the political arena by writing an article blasting the administration for the trip he took. Everyone wanted to know who the @#$# Joe Wilson was, writing an article for a newspaper blasting the administration for some secret journey he took. Did he seriously not think that eventually people would connect him to his wife?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    > Would you prefer to debate a weak-minded opponent who is unsure of his present position?

    Of course! You said so yourself... where is it?... ah! here... "More often than not, I debate to change the mind of the people who are ignorant of the issues but watching said debate."
    I think you mistake my meaning. I prefer to have a real debate with people on issues where the folks who are watching the debate, not participating, may learn from it.

    So, no, I did not say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    > You can better tell if your position can withstand scrutiny, when dealing with a knowledgable and able adversary, though I do not claim to be one.

    If you don't claim to be one, why the adjectives on your initial post? I'm confused.
    I don't know what you're referring to, but my comment was based upon the idea of how good can come from debating someone who is convinced he's right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    > But such is life.

    Life is thankfully a lot more, at least to me than debating passionately about some person I don't know in a country not my own. But I'll do you the effort and tell you what I think (dispassionately)

    First a disclaimer: I'm not American. I was once called one. Or rather said to look like an American. I did take great offense at the time since I was spending my vacations in a trailer park. I'm an European, Portuguese to be more exact.

    And that is my bias. You see... at least over here the system is a lot different. A president or a prime-minister commenting on a judge decision would see him out the door next elections. The separation between the judicial and executive power is very dear to the society in general.

    Naturally there are presidential pardons just like over there. But these are a lot more complicated than simply the president deciding this person or that person should be pardoned. It happens once an year, by christmas time if memory serves me right.

    It is however impossible for a president to pardon someone from the executive. It's like a contest; everyone can buy the raffles, except for the employees.
    The US government was designed so each branch could keep an eye on another in some manner. The Legislative keeps a check on the Executive, which keeps a check on the Judicial, which keeps a check on the Legislative. That was the intent and design.

    If your only problem with the case is the system of government that the United States has, that's not a major problem, but I hope Mr. Libby does not suffer your good opinion on that dislike alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    So... anyways... Mr Libby faced trial. He had an opportunity to defend himself which he did as you and I (yes, there was coverage over here) know. He was convicted of perjury. And not you, or I or Bush can change that. It's all fine you say there was no crime. But then go the extra mile if you please and condemn not only the left wing but also the entire American judicial system. Oh and Bush too. Since nowhere he says Libby didn't commit perjury. Unless you are saying perjury is not a crime.
    As I said before, his ability to defend himself was hampered greatly by the judge in the case. He was not allowed to display a real defense. He couldn't even be allowed to mention who Novak's real leak was, if I remember correcting. He wasn't allowed to show that he had no real reason to lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    And what happens next? The president pushes the judicial system aside and declares he knows better and the sentence was too harsh. Naturally, things can't be that different over there than they are here. And thinks like appeals, higher instance courts and even the Supreme court happen to exist in America, don't they? Don't answer.
    This has been going on for over 200 years. I hope you stated your objections during the other US pardons that have occurred in your lifetime.

    In addition, you stated yourself that your own country has a process to receive a pardon, albeit more complicated.

    Other countries have the same thing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon

    I don't understand why in America the pardon process appears illegal in your eyes, but in other countries, such as your own, it's fine. If I'm misunderstanding you, please help me out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    So... in the end, a President overpowered the judicial system and took matters on his own hands.
    The Constitution of the United States grants this power, hence there is no "overpowering" that was not intended by the writers. The Constitution lays out the rules and allows this explicitly. The Executive Branch of government is supposed to keep an eye on the Judicial Branch. This is why it's the President of the United States that selects and appoints judges, and not Congress. Congress is meant to make sure the President doesn't go out of line, and the Supreme Court is meant to make sure Congress doesn't make any bad, inherently illegal laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    On some obscure African country we would call this ... But in America you say he did the right thing.
    Please continue. I'd love to hear it.

    Edit:

    BTW, this is an excellent article on the subject (that actually Dave_Sinkula posted on page 2):

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030801499.html

    This particular case is as disgusting to me as the Duke case, and the overeagerness of the prosecutor to find a crime is not too unstrikingly similar.
    Last edited by MacGyver; 07-03-2007 at 07:54 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Sinkula View Post
    The candidate of choice for David Duke AND Scientology! Awesome!

  7. #37
    Just Lurking Dave_Sinkula's Avatar
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    I shudder to ask what the choice of the left might be.
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  8. #38
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    I haven't heard of any major democratic candidates that are endorsed by cults-masquerading-as-religions or major white supremacist leaders

  9. #39
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    And not you, or I or Bush can change that
    *cough*nor*cough*

    The Executive Branch of government is supposed to keep an eye on the Judicial Branch. This is why it's the President of the United States that selects and appoints judges, and not Congress. Congress is meant to make sure the President doesn't go out of line, and the Supreme Court is meant to make sure Congress doesn't make any bad, inherently illegal laws.
    Actually, each branch is suppose to balance out both of the other branches. Congress has certain powers over the President and the Courts, the courts have certain powers over the President and Congress, and the President has certain powers over Congress and the Courts.


    As for this subject of this topic: I don't think anyone was surprised. Like it or not this is within the powers given to the President. Modern Presidents have pardon/commuted hundreds of people each during their term. Most go without notice.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govtcheez View Post
    I haven't heard of any major democratic candidates that are endorsed by cults-masquerading-as-religions or major white supremacist leaders
    Wuss.
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  11. #41
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govtcheez View Post
    cults-masquerading-as-religions
    Have you been talking to the German government again?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thantos View Post
    Have you been talking to the German government again?
    Nope, talking from personal experience here

  13. #43
    Yes, my avatar is stolen anonytmouse's Avatar
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    I haven't read all the posts but are you talking about that guy who got into trouble for exposing the super secret military space-plane, and then got pardoned by the president at the last minute? I saw a documentary about it.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by anonytmouse View Post
    I haven't read all the posts but are you talking about that guy who got into trouble for exposing the super secret military space-plane, and then got pardoned by the president at the last minute? I saw a documentary about it.
    Um... no.

    I think you meant to say "I haven't read any of the posts or the article in the first post"

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govtcheez View Post
    I haven't heard of any major democratic candidates that are endorsed by cults-masquerading-as-religions or major white supremacist leaders
    Too bad Robert Byrd isn't a candidate. He was even anti-war on the grounds he would refuse to fight beside someone black. Tried to scuttle the Civil Rights Act of 1964.... Used the N word in 2001 in poor taste, and only in 1982 decided that parents love their children no matter their race. So apparently before that he didn't think blacks had feelings either, I guess, since apparently we know he didn't have any.

    Yup.

    Good candidate.

    David Duke would be proud.


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