Question for PC Gamers: How much have you spent on certain games? ...

This is a discussion on Question for PC Gamers: How much have you spent on certain games? ... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; LOL, I just noticed a program I was messing with has this in EULA: "You may not disassemble or reverse ...

  1. #16
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    LOL, I just noticed a program I was messing with has this in EULA: "You may not disassemble or reverse engineer any part of this program. ". Yeh right, that hard drive in my box is MY piece of metal!
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  2. #17
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    You see it in almost any EULA (except GNU type ones, from open-source projects). It's better to just not decompile any non-GNU type program. That includes games, drivers, graphics programs, anything that is not open-source or your own creation that you programmed yourself. Another thing to note is that EULA's often state of only installing and using one copy on one computer - not using the same copy on multiple computers (unless the license agreement says so or you bought a multi-license version).
    High elevation is the best elevation. The higher, the better the view!
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  3. #18
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    My latest games have been:

    [list][*]Sims 2 Seasons: - 29.99[*]Tom Clancy Splinter Cell Chaos Theory: 19.99[*]Test Drive: Unlimited - 39.99[*]BattleField 2 with all 4 exp packs: 39.99[*]IL2 Sturmovik: 1946 - 49.99 (from UK)[*]Flight Sim X Deluxe Edition: 59.99

    BTW no flight sim is designed to be used with the keyboard. It would not work when flying a real plane and it doesn't work in modern flight sims. If you wanna fly go get a nice stick and throttle and you will enjoy the sim much more.

    Games I've been playing:
    [list][*]Joint Ops and Escalation (great game but too many hackers)[*]Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (solved it, bit buggy)[*]IL2 Sturmovik: 1946 (via Hyperlobby, no hackers, no crashes, - excellent)[*]Test Drive: Unlimited (so far just offline)


    The two biggest problems in the gaming industry today are thieves and cheaters/hackers. Some people feel as if it is their right to steal the game from the company by downloading it, illegally copying it from a friend, or copying the DVD and sending the game back to the store as if it didn't work. All of these are hurting the PC gaming industry. It's a very simply concept. If you want to play a game then go buy it. It is extremely difficult to program these games and a lot of people have lost a lot of sleep, family time, and money just to bring it to your doorstep. To steal it from them is a slap in their face

    Modifying a game in memory is called hacking and I would say that is against the EULA not to mention that online it ruins the game, royally ticks people off, and is a testament to one's poor character. If you gotta cheat to play then just box it back up and take it back to the store so those of us that enjoy games can play them without the morons who cheat. Modifying a game in memory via loaded DLLs or some other means is simply not acceptable. For me this is not something to joke about or condone and seriously hurts the sales of online games. Companies have spent lots of money for the purpose of preventing cheaters and yet people continually come up with ways to destroy the games by coding DLLs or modules that do auto aiming, god mode, super speed running/walking, glitching through 3D models, unlimited ammo, foliage disappearing hacks (on JO), no trees hack (JO), glowing enemy hacks (JO), etc, etc.

    LOL, I just noticed a program I was messing with has this in EULA: "You may not disassemble or reverse engineer any part of this program. ". Yeh right, that hard drive in my box is MY piece of metal!
    Yes but the code on the piece of metal is most certainly NOT yours. Are you gonna go steal gas just because it's YOUR car? Not pay your electric bill because it's YOUR appliances. Not pay your car payment because YOU drive the thing? Your argument is absurd.


    This is not a thread about the EULA, how to get around it, or how to hack. If it does degrade into that or a discussion of how to hack or how to steal games then it will violate the forum rules and guidelines and it will be closed.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 05-13-2007 at 03:00 PM.

  4. #19
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    I agree, but most games wouldn't be where they are if the EULA wasn't broken.

    Consider the TTD (TransPort Tycoon Deluxe) Patch for TTD, Which later led to the development of OpenTTD.

    And the games I haven't been playing according to my lecturers:

    * Old Playstation games (emulated) - I OWN the games.
    * Xmoto
    * MOHAA
    * Day Of Defeat
    Last edited by zacs7; 05-14-2007 at 05:07 AM.

  5. #20
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulillillia View Post
    You see it in almost any EULA (except GNU type ones, from open-source projects). It's better to just not decompile any non-GNU type program. That includes games, drivers, graphics programs, anything that is not open-source or your own creation that you programmed yourself. Another thing to note is that EULA's often state of only installing and using one copy on one computer - not using the same copy on multiple computers (unless the license agreement says so or you bought a multi-license version).
    Well... disassemblying a prog - how do you juridically define it? It's almost like you've given a source code and you may not read it.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  6. #21
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Some of you are mixing the idea of mods for games with hacks. They are 2 different beasties and most mods are created with the permission of the company and/or with the tools they provided for such a task.

  7. #22
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    >>Well... disassemblying a prog - how do you juridically define it? It's almost like you've given a source code and you may not read it.<<

    Try and justify it any way you want, you know it is wrong. When you grow up you will stop.

    You can reverse engineer data formats as you OWN the data. You can not reverse engineer the app that created the data as you only have a LICENCE to use it.

    Remember that each game you 'steal' costs programmer jobs (by reducing the number of games that get developed because they are less profitable than they should be).

    Also you are indirectly responsible for DRM monstrosities like StarForce and First4Internets root-kit DRM used by SONY. If you did not streal these technologies would not be required.


    On Topic;

    Griefers and hackers stopped me playing CS Source and to some extent BF2 (and the fact my twitch response is now to slow to beat the wippersnappers...).

    WoW (trial) and Lord of the Rings Online (beta) bored me. Too many kill X of these, talk to NPC (30 mins away) quests. Prefered instanced games where others can not leech off your efforts.

    I play DDO with a few RL friends based around the world. Instanced quests, inbuilt voice, good graphics and free expansions (roughly) each month keep me paying.
    "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
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  8. #23
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    As I mentioned a few times before, I'm a part of an anticheating organization for a game. I've written software (not really anything important) to assist in this, but it's pretty much an endless fight, as is every type of rule/law enforcement. There are always people in life that think they can get away with something, and gaming is no exception. That's why we have a close-to zero tolerance policy. We ban your once when you get caught. If you come back, we ban you yet again. We don't care if you've reformed. Make a mistake, and live with it, just not on our servers.

    I can't stand the excuse from the cheat writers that they write, release, and use cheats to simply learn about the game engine. I love learning, too, but I don't abuse my knowledge at others' expense. I've written simple mods in the past, and that's how you're supposed to learn, have fun with coding, and assist the gaming communities that you are a part of.

    EULA's are usually written pretty badly, though, anyway. One Microsoft EULA years ago came across to me as saying that a specific action was permitted, while a few lines later it appeared to be prohibiting the same action. Same with the idea of modding in some EULA's. The game companies put out tools to assist in making mods and sometimes expressly encourage it, but they do restrict your right to use the game software and the act of "reverse engineering" it. The spirit of the restrictions are what matters I guess.

    America's Army is a game I ran away from. The devs released an update that supposedly worked against cheats, but in reality was an update to block mods. I read a forum where one of the devs was complaining against Punkbuster. What was the one dev's criticism? That admins were able to run their own custom checks to block out his cheat scripts. He claimed that since the scripts wouldn't work anyway in multiplayer in those settings, he shouldn't be kicked for having the script. Was kind of sad and frustrating to watch someone else point out that the devs had previously forgotten ( ) to disable those cheat scripts in a previous update. There were other things that made this game community just seem horrible.

    Anyway, enough random ramblings....

  9. #24
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    I recently have been playing GunZ: The Duel, quite possibly the worst game to ever plague the internet. Terrible graphics, limited content, pay to play items... I've spent over three thousand hours on this stupid game. Why? Friends, some of which inspired me to learn C, which brought me to these forums and this site(<3 Dexgod). Glitch game play is addictive, and GunZ has some of the worst/best glitch play I've ever seen. Small oversights in the code which allowed certain commands to cancel out animations, allow for otherwise insane combinations of moves, which the community calls K-Style (Korean Style, because the game originally came from Korea).

    I feel like I'm advertising.

    Outside of that, I've played all of Blizzard's games at one time or another, and I probably spent the most time in WoW.

  10. #25
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Cheating is also a bit like terrorism, It runs on fear. Now you get accused of cheating without doing so

    Maybe it's just me cause I'm pr0 ?

  11. #26
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novacain View Post
    Remember that each game you 'steal' costs programmer jobs (by reducing the number of games that get developed because they are less profitable than they should be).
    Disassembling a game won't decrease it's sales... (who would publish their reverse engineered stuff anyway?).
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    Some of you are mixing the idea of mods for games with hacks. They are 2 different beasties and most mods are created with the permission of the company and/or with the tools they provided for such a task.
    Some games have a built-in plugin system which makes modding totally legal and ethical. For example GTA Vice City.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem
    This is not a thread about the EULA, how to get around it, or how to hack. If it does degrade into that or a discussion of how to hack or how to steal games then it will violate the forum rules and guidelines and it will be closed.
    No how-s have been mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by zacs7 View Post
    Cheating is also a bit like terrorism, It runs on fear. Now you get accused of cheating without doing so

    Maybe it's just me cause I'm pr0 ?
    There is nothing more lame than cheating.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver
    There are always people in life that think they can get away with something, and gaming is no exception. That's why we have a close-to zero tolerance policy. We ban your once when you get caught. If you come back, we ban you yet again. We don't care if you've reformed. Make a mistake, and live with it, just not on our servers.
    I can't think of a worse policy. I play in servers where there is only one rule - abusing other players will be a kick. Bans... I've seen only few of them (with quick unbans though). Most of the experienced players are on those servers. I call such servers fun-oriented. How many bans really come from abusing other players? I think most of the bans are just for being "caught". The three golden words are "We Don't Care".
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver
    I can't stand the excuse from the cheat writers that they write, release, and use cheats to simply learn about the game engine. I love learning, too, but I don't abuse my knowledge at others' expense. I've written simple mods in the past, and that's how you're supposed to learn, have fun with coding, and assist the gaming communities that you are a part of.
    A little irony: Well, I'm a mod writer, that means I'm evil. A little detail though - the mod that I write is a multiplayer mod for a singleplayer game.
    There is only one difference between a good and a bad modders - good ones don't publish their evil stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver
    The game companies put out tools to assist in making mods and sometimes expressly encourage it, but they do restrict your right to use the game software and the act of "reverse engineering" it. The spirit of the restrictions are what matters I guess.
    Indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by novacain
    Also you are indirectly responsible for DRM monstrosities like StarForce and First4Internets root-kit DRM used by SONY. If you did not streal these technologies would not be required.
    I'm glad if I helped to create such pieces of art.
    Quote Originally Posted by novacain
    Try and justify it any way you want, you know it is wrong. When you grow up you will stop.
    It is not wrong when it's not done with good intentions.

    Disassembling is the only way to know what stuff I am actually installing. What if malware would have EULAs.

    Disassemblers are my favourite games.
    Last edited by maxorator; 05-16-2007 at 10:41 PM.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  12. #27
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    Eh? I know I don't cheat. But I do get accused of doing so Which has led to unjustified bans...

  13. #28
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    When I play games, I play them normally at first. I then try coming up with my own challenges and once I run out, I use cheats from things like Gameshark and Action Replay to make some things more difficult giving myself more self-made challenges which keeps me at games for a long time. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is practically perfect. Once I started that game in 2002, I've come up with so many challenges and yet, I'm still coming up with my own challenges. The "low gravity" cheat in Super Mario Sunshine makes making some jumps more difficult and it becomes surprisingly easy to get into odd or unusual places causing a sudden loss of a life. Sure it makes some things easier, but it makes others harder and that's what matters. I practically never use cheats to get help finishing games - practically all games are too easy. Blaster Master, for the NES, is about at my skill. I mainly use cheats to attempt to make the game harder than it really is, or, in the case of this amazing game stunt in Super Monkey Ball 2 where I get shot up at 2400 mph and try to make the goal), to get the full experience of something not possible otherwise.

    And how can cheats get you banned? Banned from what?
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  14. #29
    Deathray Engineer MacGyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    I can't think of a worse policy. I play in servers where there is only one rule - abusing other players will be a kick. Bans... I've seen only few of them (with quick unbans though). Most of the experienced players are on those servers. I call such servers fun-oriented. How many bans really come from abusing other players? I think most of the bans are just for being "caught". The three golden words are "We Don't Care".
    LOL. You say, "There is nothing more lame than cheating." and then you turn around and say zero tolerance policies are the worst policies.

    I wonder why.

    Oh could it be because you're a member of http://www.rootkit.com/, and you're actively trying to build the features of a rootkit called Hacker Defender into your current program(s)?

    http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...n&ct=clnk&cd=7

    Would it be difficult? I want to build Hacker Defender into my program, not to use it externally, but I like to program in C. I am not very familiar with Delphi. At least trying to write it into C is good for something - I learn Delphi this way.

    Also is it somehow possible to detect the folder in the driver so it would hide only some specific files? Let's say the folder is the HDD root (so there is no way someone could notice they can't delete a folder).

    I don't know where's the best place to start with learning about drivers and NT kernel stuff. If I could get the source code of Hacker Defender into C, then I'd possibly have everything I need. Also I think I should read some good driver development tutorials (like codeproject's) and try to load them dynamically as shown in FUTo.

    I've been reading a lot of stuff about what rootkits do, what do they mean to the end-users, about botnets and stuff in general. I don't think there are good tutorials which directly show how to write a rootkit, but I would appreciate any information that could get me closer to the "real stuff".

    I don't want just to use Hacker Defender. There wouldn't be much to be proud about then. I want to understand it, modify it and learn to find ways to subvert NT kernel. Which reminds me... is hoglund's book good for such a novice as me?

    I've been doing web development for about 3 years, C and C++ for about 2 years and some other languages. I am quite familiar with Assembly, but I'm not very good at reverse engineering yet. That's what I want to learn more about, too.

    I'm hungry for knowledge...
    And yes, I'm sure this is you.

    http://www.rootkit.com/user.php?name=maxorator

    And looking down that topic, apparently someone found a usage for Hacker Defender:

    I was using the rootkit for hiding my hacks from the anty-cheat progy that I need to use for playing one game. And it was working perfect till one day after the anty-cheat was uptaded. Like many times before, but this one was different... It detected the hacks after hiding them with the rootkit!
    I need advice. What i must do, change the rootkit, am I doing something wrong (I allways read the "readme" untill I understand the stuff i need).
    If cheating at a multiplayer game and attempting to benefit at others' expense is not "abusing" them, then I don't know what is. You or anyone else can pretend to be a 1337 haxor all day over on those forums, but we don't tolerate messing around on our members' servers. We're just sick of it.

    You guys that think anticheating is just banning people you don't like need to check out organizations like http://www.punksbusted.com/. It's simply an organization of server admins that use Punkbuster software. Their memebers servers stream PB data from the servers to a central repository. If someone is caught on one server, their ban is spread throughout the entire system, and every server that is a part of the system can be made aware of it usually within 24 to 48 hours. THAT is effective.

    Organizations like mine work on a smaller area a little more ahead of the groups like that. Our goal is to work towards catching private cheats, as well as tracking down supposed new players that are actually cheaters that simply have come back into the game by stealing, buying, or otherwise obtaining a new CD-Key.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    A little irony: Well, I'm a mod writer, that means I'm evil. A little detail though - the mod that I write is a multiplayer mod for a singleplayer game.
    There is only one difference between a good and a bad modders - good ones don't publish their evil stuff.
    Incorrect. I'm a modder, and I'm not evil by any means. Your assumption that good modders have evil stuff is kind of amusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ulillillia View Post
    And how can cheats get you banned? Banned from what?
    We ban for multiplayer cheats on multiplayer servers. The ban is from our members' servers.
    Last edited by MacGyver; 05-16-2007 at 05:34 PM.

  15. #30
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    ulillillia pfft you go on about licencing and how your not allowed to decompile games, yet you cheat yourself!

    Using modding you can also cheat in CloseCombat , change your weapon stats and they work online/LAN

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