Help with Medieval Weapons

This is a discussion on Help with Medieval Weapons within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I thought hard on Excalibur... and a couple more famous swords like Gram and Caladbolg. The problem is that I ...

  1. #16
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I thought hard on Excalibur... and a couple more famous swords like Gram and Caladbolg. The problem is that I thought better of adding myth and non existent weapons. They will make part of the Uniques instead (a separate list of weapons akin to DIablo II system). So I even removed non existing references like the Hori, or rare ones like the Ono.

    Very close combat weapons like the cestus, medieval knuckles, and katars are not going to make it. The combat system will have armor types reducing damage according to weapon type. Some natural armor types like scales, carapaces, and hides on monsters will also be factored in. These small weapons would have to have high damage levels, equivalent at least to daggers in order to be effective. I found that would place them on the same category as daggers which wouldn't be too correct. Besides with well over 60 different weapons now, variety is not a problem

    As for "kukri" or "Khukuri", whenever I can I will always use the original name and not the english bastardized versions

    Here's the current list with some modifications from all the recent comments. This is probably coming close to the final list:

    One-handed:
    daggers: knife, rondel, stiletto, dagger, cinquedea, poniard, dirk, kris, Khukuri
    swords: shortsword, cutlass, rapier, sabre, saif, longsword, scimitar, falchion, broadsword, bastard sword, Katana, Spatha, Khopesh
    axes: hatchet, cleaver, francisca, axe, Dane
    hammers: hammer, mallet, Warhammer
    clubs: baton, club, mace, truncheon, morning star, Shillelagh
    flails: flail, Bishop, Holy Water Sprinkler
    Two-handed:
    spears: javelin, spear, assegai, sarissa, lance, Trident
    staves: quarterstaff, pole, rod, Shaft
    polearms: halberd, poleaxe, bardiche, bill, glaive, Lucern, Lochaber
    double axes: double axe, war axe, Doloire
    dual swords: two-handed sword, great sword, giant sword, Claymore, Flamberge
    dual hammers: maul, sledge, Giant War Hammer, Goedendag
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  2. #17
    Its hard... But im here swgh's Avatar
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    Are you going to have a "final fantasy" style battle system? Like player hits enemy, then enemy hits player, all done onthe famous 'hit and miss' system? Or have you devised your own battle function?
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  3. #18
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    I thought the Morning Star was a flail not a club. Hmm, after some research it looks like the flail like version isn't supposed to be called a morning star.

    I also wouldn't call a cleaver an axe. I'm not sure I'd call a cleaver a weapon at all. Might as well throw Butcher Knife and Spatula in there.

    Two things I'd definitely add is scythe, machete, and sai, if they weren't already turned down. They might not have been around by medieval times, I suppose.
    Last edited by SlyMaelstrom; 12-07-2006 at 06:30 AM.
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  4. #19
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swgh
    Are you going to have a "final fantasy" style battle system? Like player hits enemy, then enemy hits player, all done onthe famous 'hit and miss' system? Or have you devised your own battle function?
    Nah. I'm going to have a proprietary, highly-copyrighted, secret battle system
    But seriously, it is a slightly complex system. Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence and Smartness attributes all factor in for to-hit or damage results. Depends. Weapon used versus armor also does. Other variables are enemy size, luck, wounds (you are less effective as you take wounds)... etc... The actual details I don't have yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlyMaelstrom
    I thought the Morning Star was a flail not a club.
    Yeah. It's one of those confusing things. The morningstar is a mace made of an handle with a spiked ball at the top. The morning star (note the space) is a flail with a spiked ball at the end of the chain. The problem is that this distinction is not historically correct. Apparently both weapons were called morning star.

    I've been reading a lot on flails since I got curious about the lack of info. These weapons had a short history in medieval europe. They were scary, but very dangerous also to their wielder. To be effective in melee, the arm needed to be constantly moving which would quickly tire anyone. Furthermore, if rotated too fast or too slow, you would loose control of the implement at the end of the chain... sometimes with fatal consequences to your own head, torso or legs.

    As such, flails were only weapons to instill terror during the initial stages of battle or to keep an enemy at bay momentarily. As soon as one blow landed or the initial moment passed, they were immediately discarded (tossed to the ground or released towards the enemy) and other weapons were used.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #20
    Devil's Advocate SlyMaelstrom's Avatar
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    Personally, I think a flail to the head is all it's going to take to put a guy down, helmet or not. So one hit is all a good flail user needs.

    In any event, a trusty m249 SAW and a bunch of rounds would wipe out a medieval army in a heart beat... so you should make that a secret weapon. Seriously, it's always been a dream of mine to walk into one of those medieval times wars with an automatic machine gun in my hands.
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  6. #21
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    It won't happen
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  7. #22
    Even death may die... Dante Shamest's Avatar
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  8. #23
    CSharpener vart's Avatar
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    And what about 1.5 - weapon that can be used both styles?

    And where is katana - the only choice of the true munchkin?
    The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time,
    the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time.

  9. #24
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    > And where is katana
    Mario has placed it correctly in the single-handed sword category.

    Actually, I'd re-evaluate the sword category carefully. Can you really wield a broadsword or longsword with one hand? I've never seen it demonstrated that way before.

  10. #25
    CSharpener vart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citizen
    Can you really wield a broadsword or longsword with one hand? I've never seen it demonstrated that way before.
    If we look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore
    Broadsword is a family, one of the members is Claymore which has two versions - two handed and called broadsword:
    Basket-hilted claymore
    The second, later, sword to be designated "claymore" was a much shorter, one-handed, basket-hilted broadsword popular with Scottish troops and some English officers from the 18th century onwards, even seeing combat on the beaches of Normandy during World War II[citation needed]. The basket was designed to protect the hand in combat. The Scottish basket-hilt sword is often distinguished from others by the velvet liner inside the basket (often in red), and also sometimes by additional decorative tassels on the hilt or pommel. This latter form of "claymore" (unrelated to the first) can be seen in some forms of highland traditional dance, as well as on the dress uniforms of British Army regiments drawn from the region. A claymore was carried in World War II by Lt. Col. Jack Churchill DSO, MC & BAR.
    As we see the second one is one-handed...

    In games longsword traditionally is also put in the one-hand category, possible to use together with shield. Have no idea if there is correct historical analogy for that
    The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time,
    the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time.

  11. #26
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Excellent points.

    > Can you really wield a broadsword or longsword with one hand?

    I don't think there is an agreement on the particular issue of swords. To add to the confusion, certain types of weapons that were designed to be used dual-handed were commonly used single-handedly by strong men (which made a big part of the sword wielders of any medieval army), making these extremely dangerous weapons. This is especially true of the longsword and broadsword.

    > Broadsword is a family, one of the members is Claymore which has two versions - two handed and called broadsword:

    However I completely digress from that Wikipedia article on the Scots Claymore. The basket-hilted broadsword was an unpopular, localized weapon that didn't spread past Scotland. And It's the first time I hear it being called claymore. The long Claymore, which is also attributed to the Scots, was much more popular. And this weapon had indeed to be used with both hands even by strong warriors. Not so much for its weight, which was not that much more than a normal longsword, but because the blade was very flexible and demanded more control for balance. Claymores were longer, more flexible versions of the longsword. Their relation to broadswords is completely new to me and the first time I hear of it.

    > And what about 1.5 - weapon that can be used both styles?

    I'm really divided on that one. It will force me to change my current classes. But I have already considered that I should allow it. I'm just first need to evaluate how much of the current work needs to be changed. That thought only occurred to me much later during the development phase.

    > Butterfly Swords!!!

    Yup. It's a possibility. I like the imagery of dual-wielding daggers. It was certainly not popular among the medieval (or chinese) military. But it was a common in street fights and martial arts.

    Those butterflies, the Sai, and maybe a few others could be added to a new double-handed daggers category, although I suspect oriental influence will be much bigger here.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  12. #27
    CSharpener vart's Avatar
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    Their relation to broadswords is completely new to me and the first time I hear of it.
    Argh! I thought that this can be misunderstood in my post. Did not mean that.

    Only wanted to say that there are two types of Claymors
    two handed and one-handed.
    Only the second one is a member of broadswords family...

    Sorry!
    The first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time,
    the last 10% takes the other 90% of the time.

  13. #28
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F.
    hammers: hammer, mallet, Warhammer
    Maybe add Mjolnir to the list? I'm just surprised you haven't complained about the blandness.

  14. #29
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    Maybe you could add a feature so that initially a broad sword requires two hands, but once the player becomes strong enough he can use it with one hand, freeing the other hand for another item.

    On the topic of tridents: Although they were not used to my knowledge by any formal army, they WERE used in fighting. The Roman Gladiators used them quite often (combined with a net).
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  15. #30
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    > Only the second one is a member of broadswords family...

    Ah! Gotcha.

    > Maybe add Mjolnir to the list? I'm just surprised you haven't complained about the blandness.

    How could I forget about the Mjolnir. Hard to not be a fan of norse mythology
    But it will be added to the list of Uniques.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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