Are you for MS or Anti-MS?

This is a discussion on Are you for MS or Anti-MS? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Well, personally, I'd like to kill Bill Gates because of programming problems, but that has nothing to do with MS. ...

  1. #16
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    Well, personally, I'd like to kill Bill Gates because of programming problems, but that has nothing to do with MS. That has to do with Bill Gates.

    I think that without Microsoft, The computer world would have been screwed. Remember before IBM and Microsoft? Now, I wasn't alive back then, but I know for a fact that there were a LOT more operating systems in use than there are today. Now, if we were still there, with all these games, all this hardware, and all these programs, then we would have to port all our programs, we would have thousands or millions more man-hours being used to write drivers for our hardware.

    Long gone are the days of programmers making all their programs. These days we have standards, therefore, without microsoft and their standards, we would be working thousands of times harder to do things.
    Dude101 =) LALALALALALALALA

  2. #17
    Just one more wrong move. -KEN-'s Avatar
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    Actually, they all ran similar operating systems (if not the same), at least for business purposes. Then IBM did something wonderful and went with an open design on their PC, and, well it's all history after that...

  3. #18
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I think that Microsoft contributed A LOT to the world of computers, but that doesn't make up for the fact that they have created an operating system that programmers only have indirect access to, they design systems that are crash-prone and inefficient, they are an incorrigible monopoly, and cannot seem to make security and privacy a reality in their products. Other than that, though, I'm all FOR Microsoft. I think they should change their name to Megasoft or Monoposoft or something...
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

  4. #19
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    Why is having a standerd as simple as a document format so wrong.
    Samba's protocol had to be reverse engineered.
    I was referring to the anti-competitive tatics Microsoft uses.

    Take this senero
    There are 4 main OS for PC.
    The first is Dean0S witch runs on 23% of all PC's
    The Second is HillOS witch runs on 27% of all pc's
    The third is Fruit0S witch runs on 24% of all pc's
    The forth is Nix0S witch runs on 25% of all pc's
    There is also a 1% group using other os primarly Cheez0S.
    Cross platform api's such as opengl and Xlib which runs
    under most unixes.

    Now as a developer you would want to have your program run on at least 3 of these OS, in order to provide a stable market. This means you need all those OS witch cost monney. You probley want a difrent computer for each OS. You will have to port your program witch takes time.
    Just about every major application being build for windows
    now days must be beta tested with windows 95, 98, windows me, windows NT, windows 2000. It must also be tested against different hardware situations. Your forgetting that
    there's multiple markets for consoles etc.

  5. #20
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    Let me further my point about the OS. An OS, to be really useful, should be completely free and open. Why? Because otherwise you have a situation where the OS maker has control over the systems designer. When all a programmer has to go by is what microsoft tells him about their *top secret* OS, there is a severe limitation thus placed on the programmer. Take UNIX. I've heard programmers utterly praise the fact that they have a direct knowledge of the precise nature of the innerworkings of this OS. If Microsoft were to be fair, the OS would be open and the software they wrote to run on that platform would be propriety.
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

  6. #21
    the hat of redundancy hat nvoigt's Avatar
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    they have created an operating system that programmers only have indirect access to, they design systems that are crashprone
    Now what makes an OS crashprone is allowing direct access.
    Which btw you have in windows as a programmer if you
    write something like a device driver. I don't see a reason anyone
    should fiddle with the graphics memory directly for example.

    beta tested with windows 95, 98, windows me, windows NT, windows 2000
    Testing shouldn't take that much time if you test it on various
    windows systems. What takes time is debugging and when it
    runs without errors on NT, it pretty much runs on anything else,
    too.
    hth
    -nv

    She was so Blonde, she spent 20 minutes looking at the orange juice can because it said "Concentrate."

    When in doubt, read the FAQ.
    Then ask a smart question.

  7. #22
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    I'm generally for them, but I don't agree with everything. I really, really don't like their new registration policies with XP. I still don't think I should have to convince MS that I didn't steal the OS when I upgrade my system.

    I'd like them to release an open source OS, if not just to shut up the Linux whiners.

  8. #23
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    umm... Linux whiners? I see most of you people aren't much for UNIX or Linux as the case may be. I'll have you know that it's one of the most stable and efficient OSs available... at any brand or flavor. If I wasn't raised on MS products, something I blame on society as a whole, I'd probably be a full time Linux user... don't get me wrong... MS has its pros... and to be honest, I do like some of their software... but mainly because everyone else has it and it's easier to go with the grain.

    As a whole, I sadly have to say I'm for MS for my own desktop use, but that's only because game designers don't port their games to Linux most of the time... LINUX RULES, WINDOWS DROOLS...

    and XP sucks.

  9. #24
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    OK, I agree with most of what ober said, 'cept his closing jab. I'm writing to address Fool's first post. Why is the monopoly a good thing? First of all, they don't have a pure monopoly, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Secondly, if they actually did have a monopoly, they could just raise prices to whatever they wanted. Since we all run their stuff, there'd be no relief from whatever they wanted to do. I don't think a monopoly is good, in any case at all.

    And, next...
    There is also a 1% group using other os primarly Cheez0S.
    Just 1%, gg? Damn... I guess it's time to bring out CheetOS XS (extra special). It'll primarily be for the Wombat gaming system that I spoke about in a much earlier thread, but its cross-platform compatibility spreads to refrigerators, freezers (we finally broke the ice-cube matrix!), and thumbtacks.

  10. #25
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    Now what makes an OS crashprone is allowing direct access.
    Let me illustrate this as a metaphor:

    Let's say you have a car. Now the car-maker says " You can add stuff(*apps*) to the car(*windows*) but if what you add is not working properly(*bugs*) you may NOT look under the hood(*OS*) even if it might help you solve the problem. Instead we have this little manual here that we personally wrote that must be consulted in the event of such problems".

    So what if they leave something out?

    I have actually stumbled on websites where the programmer writes "...if I hadn't discovered the solution quite by accident, as I did, I probably would never have solved the problem. Apparently Microsoft did not bother to document this strange anomoly..."

    So my point is, to me it seems that Microsoft is making it harder for Non-Microsoft engineers to solve problems/innovate, etc...
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

  11. #26
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    nvoigt... I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your statements COMPLETELY.

    Writing a device driver DOES NOT allow you, the programmer, direct access to the OS. I don't know where you got your training, but that's complete BS. I think you're completely missing the whole idea behind the open source movement. And some of us like to tweak... do you have a problem with that? Getting peak performance out of a piece of hardware is essential in some situations.

    I think Sebastiani made a good point, but I disagree with his last statement. Open source developers do not have any problem being innovative and "thinking outside the box". It is these morons that only program for Windows that are stuck INSIDE the box. Look at Linus Torvalds... I don't think M$ had anything to do with holding him down.

    The whole point behind open source is to allow individuals, who either see bugs or simply do not like the way a program works, to break it down, change the code and recompile it. Hell, with Linux you can recompile the freakin kernel! No hand holding like in windows! You have COMPLETE control. Don't like how it works? THEN FIX IT.

  12. #27
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    I think Sebastiani made a good point, but I disagree with his last statement.
    When I say "Non-Microsoft engineers" I mean Windows programmers that are NOT working at Microsoft...
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

  13. #28
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    ok... I guess I misunderstood your statement. And I think you're right... not having open source and well developed commenting/reporting standards is definately a hinderance. I think they could open up a little more and spill the guts of some of their programming without a significant revenue loss... but that's just me. I'm sure some piracy would immediately take place... but this business of registering your copy of XP and all of that jazz is a little out of hand.. and I'm sure most of you agree with me on that. That is purely a money making scheme.

  14. #29
    Guest Sebastiani's Avatar
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    I'm sure some piracy would immediately take place...
    Ha! I feel sorry for the stupid SOB that steals THAT OS!!!
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

  15. #30
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    Ever here of linux, Java , or Unix? Its all about drivers- and linux has proved how a small OS can have a driver base that supports almost everything. "Standards" is very much a microsoft term - Java although some of you hate it is much better than MFC, or WIN32 API. Opengl will work on any machine that supports it (macOS, Solaris, Linux, etc.)

    Take unix for example it was developed in 95% C, if you have a way of converting C to machine code you have a Unix compatible machine.

    Linux works on Alphas, 386s, etc. It did not take billions and billions of dollars and a monopoly to get this support.

    Microsoft realized Java would destroy the imaginary "Standards" imposed by microsoft- So they made J++, got sued and are now making C#. And to continue the "Standards" C# is heavily (dont believe the MS BS) intertwined with their properiteiry Visual Basic.

    Microsoft has made very little innovations, every one of there oses\programs is made from another companys idea

    Dos = Unix(actuallly dos was bought)
    Windows = MacOS
    WindowsNT = Unix
    Microsoft office = Corel Whatever it was...
    Windows XP = Linux + Unix + MacOS

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