C++/CLI arrogance

This is a discussion on C++/CLI arrogance within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; couldn't have imagined that 'arguing over nothing' would be the phrase in that post that touched a nerve. But then ...

  1. #91
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    couldn't have imagined that 'arguing over nothing' would be the phrase in that post that touched a nerve. But then we seem to differ in more than one way don't we? I assure you that the phrase wasn't meant to be that important to anyone. Seems as though you have raised your blood pressure 'over nothing'.
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  2. #92
    System Novice siavoshkc's Avatar
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    >>-Some feel that its too slow, although benchmarks clearly disprove that issue.

    It makes me laugh. In what language .net framework is written?
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  3. #93
    The superhaterodyne twomers's Avatar
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    GanglyLamb, that picture didn't capture your dynamics, I've got a better picture here.

  4. #94
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siavoshkc
    >>-Some feel that its too slow, although benchmarks clearly disprove that issue.

    It makes me laugh. In what language .net framework is written?
    I do have an issue with that statement too. I thought it became clearly established, when it was first shown, that certainly a FFT algorithm was not the best way to prove if a programming language is faster or slower than another.

    And the irony of it all is that the author of that test accused others of not wanting to see the big picture.

    I'm giggling...
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  5. #95
    and the Hat of Clumsiness GanglyLamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twomers
    GanglyLamb, that picture didn't capture your dynamics, I've got a better picture here.
    You just killed me, how am I supposed to breathe now?

    Nevertheless your photoshoop skills are elite.

    ( I saved the image to my desktop )

  6. #96
    The superhaterodyne twomers's Avatar
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    >> ... photoshoop skills are elite.

    Dude, get with the days! I'm on a lappy 486, with excellent GIF downloading capibilities, where internet phonecalls are very unportant to us! (Or something along those lines. You know what I'm rabbling about ... right?)

    BTW - I didn't mean to kill you. The master of time and space will fix it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by twomers
    >> ... photoshoop skills are elite.

    Dude, get with the days! I'm on a lappy 486, with excellent GIF downloading capibilities, where internet phonecalls are very unportant to us! (Or something along those lines. You know what I'm rabbling about ... right?)

    BTW - I didn't mean to kill you. The master of time and space will fix it!
    Yes, I would agree that this thread is pretty much over. Thanks for your great ideas, twomers!

  8. #98
    The superhaterodyne twomers's Avatar
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    >> Thanks for your great ideas, twomers!

    ... no worries joe! ... (kinda confused, but cool!)

  9. #99
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    couldn't have imagined that 'arguing over nothing' would be the phrase in that post that touched a nerve. But then we seem to differ in more than one way don't we? I assure you that the phrase wasn't meant to be that important to anyone. Seems as though you have raised your blood pressure 'over nothing'.
    Didn't bother me at all. Just stating you can post if you want or not - no one is forcing you to 'as you say' argue over nothing.

  10. #100
    System Novice siavoshkc's Avatar
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    Now who is agree with me?

    -> .net is a good thing.
    -> C++ good code will be faster than C++/CLI good code.
    -> MS is making all the things terrible.
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  11. #101
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siavoshkc
    It makes me laugh. In what language .net framework is written?
    If in framework you include the libraries, most of those are written in C#, actually ...
    Except for the low-level interface with the system, of course, which is probably partially written in Managed C++ or C++/CLI - but not everything: P/Invoke can be more comfortable actually.
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  12. #102
    Supermassive black hole cboard_member's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siavoshkc
    Now who is agree with me?

    -> .net is a good thing.
    -> C++ good code will be faster than C++/CLI good code.
    -> MS is making all the things terrible.
    1) Yes, in certain areas of application - sometimes in others (quake 2 was ported to .NET recently)

    2) I'm honestly undecided. When I'm not working on anything else one afternoon I should run some tests and see what I make of the results before I "take sides" over this one.

    3) I'm not saying anything.
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  13. #103
    System Novice siavoshkc's Avatar
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    If in framework you include the libraries, most of those are written in C#, actually ...
    Except for the low-level interface with the system, of course, which is probably partially written in Managed C++ or C++/CLI - but not everything: P/Invoke can be more comfortable actually.
    I mean in what language managed assemblies are written.
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  14. #104
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siavoshkc
    I mean in what language managed assemblies are written.
    Uhm, are you sure you mean that? The assemblies are "written" in CIL. They are compiled from whatever source language was used: C++/CLI, C#, VB.Net, IronPython, ...
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  15. #105
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    I think Siav is trying to trace back the .Net Framework to unmanaged C++. At least it's what I think this will lead eventually. However, as appealing as it may be, I don't think this makes a good argument against .Net or C++/CLI.

    It's not because a language, or the framework supporting the language, is built on some other language, that the new programming language will be diminished somehow. This would actually be a strong case against C++, if that where to be true.

    The contrary is often what is in fact true. New programming languages benefit from being implemented on top of another, or based on another already existing language. Even speed can be improved. But mainly what is improved is the syntax, already existing features being made more powerful, addition of new features,...

    I personally think C++/CLI fails on this regard. What is that it really offers of any value that C++ doesn't already?

    . Its answer to allocated memory doesn't go past a garbage collector that can (and often is) implemented by C++ existing libraries.

    . It adds a new layer between the user and the machine making this an even higher level programming language and totally dependent on the commercial oriented framework implementator. Two disadvantages in one: So long community based implementation, and so long direct machine access.

    . It removes portability from the equation and relays that solution to third-party implementators with all the problems that may come with.

    and...

    . It offers an increase in speed development. This is definitely a good thing

    . It introduces new syntax. Contrary to many, I put this on the advantages side of this language. I actually happen to think this is a good thing. It's better to introduce new syntatic elements than to alter their use.

    . It offers a new programming paradigm. Here I'm torn. Is it conceivable to think that in the near future portability will lose the battle? That in fact system specific programming is not only easier, but quicker and more productive? That programming for a framework, instead of programming for a machine will be a possible way to both simplify the relation between the programming language and the machine? In fact, even be a possible way to give portability a new boost?
    Last edited by Mario F.; 08-02-2006 at 02:11 PM.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

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