Katrina Aftermath: Woeful Incompetence (rant).

This is a discussion on Katrina Aftermath: Woeful Incompetence (rant). within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by jverkoey Wouldn't it be pointless to rebuild the city? You're really only asking for disaster, all just ...

  1. #31
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jverkoey
    Wouldn't it be pointless to rebuild the city? You're really only asking for disaster, all just for the sake of being built in the same "area". Based on all the studies I've seen, it's going to take 20+ billion just to clean up new orleans, that's not including rebuilding the thousands upon thousands of homes, cleaning damage from the polluted water all over the city....I'm sad to say this but I really think New Orleans as a city should be moved...even though that's probably completely irational.

    It's scary, thinking that only 6 or 7 years ago I was actually walking down the streets of New Orleans...now it's all under water.
    No it's not pointless. It's a wonderful historic city. It is an economic center and crucial to the refineries in ther area. The clean up has to be done either way - it's a bio/envirmental hazard if we don't. At that point, how much already invested money are you loosing by abandoning the skyscrapers, streets, roads, and infrastructure that has survived?

    ....and as for the scary thing...2 weeks ago I followed a tradition I have...Before I left for college I took a few moments to look at the park behind my home in case I'd never see it again. It will never be the same again.
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  2. #32
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jverkoey
    I wonder, why is that China was able to evacuate half a million people in a couple days, where in the states, far fewer than that are still stuck in New Orleans? This makes no sense.

    http://english.people.com.cn/200509/...02_206032.html
    Because you're looking at news that's run through a state newspaper and because in China people don't have the choice to stay if they want to...There was a manditory evacuation of New Orleans. My parents drove out. It was quite possible to get out of the city through Monday - until it hit. The people who stayed either were dumb, or had to stay for various reasons.
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  3. #33
    Software Developer jverkoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermi3
    No it's not pointless. It's a wonderful historic city. It is an economic center and crucial to the refineries in ther area. The clean up has to be done either way - it's a bio/envirmental hazard if we don't. At that point, how much already invested money are you loosing by abandoning the skyscrapers, streets, roads, and infrastructure that has survived?
    Good point...I just hope that if it does get rebuilt, that people actually think ahead before just assuming nothing bad ever happens, heh. There's too many reports predicting this disaster, I believe, for any one person to be happy with the way things were handled before the disaster...So we should learn from it to not let it happen again (to state the obvious).

  4. #34
    Software Developer jverkoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermi3
    Because you're looking at news that's run through a state newspaper and because in China people don't have the choice to stay if they want to...There was a manditory evacuation of New Orleans. My parents drove out. It was quite possible to get out of the city through Monday - until it hit. The people who stayed either were dumb, or had to stay for various reasons.
    Ah hah, I see. Glad your parents made it out by the way.

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    Jeff, it seems to me that China performed that evacuation before the storm hit. In New Orleans, they probably evacuated 80% of the city, that's over 300,000 people, and if you include the surrounding areas, I imagine that at least half a million were evacuated in that weekend.

    Also, about New Orleans: I hope they rebuild it (and, of course, do it right). I mean, how many cities in the world are designed to withstand a direct hit from a category five hurricane? I imagine it would be something of an engineering marvel and, I hope, something of an inspiration for future generations.

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    Rebuilding New Orleans is a good idea, but certainly some considerations for preventing this kind of damage in the future are in order.

  7. #37
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jverkoey
    Good point...I just hope that if it does get rebuilt, that people actually think ahead before just assuming nothing bad ever happens, heh. There's too many reports predicting this disaster, I believe, for any one person to be happy with the way things were handled before the disaster...So we should learn from it to not let it happen again (to state the obvious).
    I think everyone in NOLA knew it would happen - my friends and I used to talk about it on the playground as kids. Locally, efforts have been made to upgrade the levies and rebuild the marshes for years, have slowed efforts to a crawl. However a lack of federal funding, which our congressional delegation have been attempting to get years. Funds were committed and then cut in the past few years' budget cuts:

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4829443
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  8. #38
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    How far below sea level is NO? It it be "builtup" to a slightly high elevation?

  9. #39
    Bob Dole for '08 B0bDole's Avatar
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    20 ft on avg I believe
    Hmm

  10. #40
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    Hmmm well if they can build an airport on the ocean I wonder if they could raise the elevation of an entire city. Of course would it do any good.

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    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    It's not that low. 6' is a better average, if I'm not mistaken:
    http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/pao/response/NGVD.asp

    They were good levies yall, just not good enough. They need to be rebuilt a few feet higher - my under educated opinion.

    edit: We also have to remember that to raise the city would cause a lot of destruction and that terraforming is part of what caused this problem. If no for coastal and wetlands erosion, there would have been a lot more land and buffer between New Orleans and the coast. Those wet lands and barrier islands were destroyed by the levies.
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  12. #42
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    Part of the reason we can't evacuate like that is simple.....we live in a democracy. You can't force people to leave their homes - they can stay if they choose to. Some chose to stay and some had no choice. But AFAIK you cannot force anyone to leave their homes.

    I know that some of the people simply could not leave and if we had a more pro-active FEMA instead of a reactive one then much of this could have been prevented. However, as usual, we reacted. Fact is they knew the levee could break and in fact practiced this exact scenario some years before Katrina struck. Computer models forecast this exact scenario and so I fail to understand why we are so shocked that it happened. I do feel for the people who absolutely had no way of escape but as for the others who had fair warning and a means to leave and brain to figure out that staying behind is probably not the best idea.....next time get out.

    I will donate food and money to the cause because I realize that not everyone was there because of a lack of planning. It saddens me to see the pictures on TV but somehow I get the feeling that the news networks are loving it. They ramp up the disturbing photos, hype up the aftermath, interview the most disturbed individuals, and overall broadcast a sense of impending doom. And then they broadcast misinformation about the gas so everyone goes out to buy it......and now what they broadcast is true because every Tom, Dick, and Harry went out and filled up because of the scare tactics. Thanks news guys. Morons. Thats it - when there is a possible gas shortage....let's scare everyone and make it so.

    Also, being an avid tornado chaser here in the Midwest, it should be noted that when the National Weather Service issues warnings they should not be taken lightly. The National Weather Service, Severe Storms Forecast, and Tropical Storms Forecast centers are not idiots. Unless you are prepared and/or understand severe weather my advice to you would be to, in the case of a hurricane: leave, and in the case of a tornado: take cover.
    But many think they know better than the weather systems in place and make very poor decisions based on this false assumption. Do so at your own peril. We have extremely advanced forecasting methods that can plot the path of these monster hurricanes when they are days away. In my estimate residents had nearly a week to plan and to get the hell out of Dodge. But many of those interviewed even admitted they simply stayed behind and didn't heed the warnings. So to all of you out there who do not heed the warnings of the National Weather Service or the Tropical reports - let this be a lesson. When a hurricane is forecasted to make landfall near you.........get the hell out of there.

    And I'm not sure how many of you have actually been in hurricane force winds. The highest wind speed I've ever experience firsthand is about 100 mph and that was only for an instant near a weather system that was producing a tornado. At 100 mph it was extremely hard to stand, see, drive, etc. I could not imagine what 145 mph winds would feel like. 145 mph winds for any length of time will simply obliterate anything that is not concrete or extremely fortified. Also more damage is caused in cities because when the wind is pushed between two buildings, the pressure drops and the wind speed increases - fundamental science. So the wind speed between buildings was probably far over the 145 mph mark. I don't know of many man made civilian structures that can handle that type of external force on it for any length of time. So the infrastructure that we all appreciate each and every day does not exist in the area because the storm either destroyed it or critically wounded it. I cannot blame the government for their reponse time given the amount of damage that was inflicted in the area by Katrina.

    As well placing rescue personnel in harms way only worsens the situation and the supplies and/or buses still wouldn't reach their correct destination. I don't appreciate that some are turning this into a political issue when in fact it is a natural disaster that no one could have stopped. Yes a lot of things didn't work as designed to but that crap happens all the time. IMO the government is doing all they can at this point to help the victims. You can't just rush in like the lone ranger and expect everything is going to be ok. This is a huge disaster - almost like having several F5 tornadoes obliterate several towns or even perhaps Chicago. You don't repair the damage overnight - and it will take years for this to be repaired. And also as far as the military being spread too far to help the victims is absolutely misinformation. CNN reported that 3 guard units were in Iraq and because of that they could not be deployed to help the victims. This is so stupid. There are hundreds of units in the United States that can be called up to aid the victims of Katrina. This was a very stupid comment made by CNN.

    And another thing I cannot see how the water can be so polluted with toxic chemicals. Everyone knows that diluting chemicals in water reduces their potency and their effect on materials. To say that the city is toxic is ridiculous - there would have to be more chemicals in the water.....than there was water in the city. And since we all know that probably 80 to 90 percent of what is in the city is water.....the toxic idea is absurd. More hype and misinformation.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand the severity of the situation and feel a deep sense of compassion on those affected by this disaster - but let's use some logic here and not jump to irrational thinking and rash conclusions. A nuclear bomb did not hit the area - it was a storm and just like all those before this one.....everything will be repaired and things will get back to normal. But it will take time.

    Playing the blame game, as has been the recent trend in the US, is not going to help anyone at this time. There will be plenty of time for that later. Right now let's concentrate on helping the victims, rebuilding the area, and getting on with daily life.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 09-02-2005 at 11:52 PM.

  13. #43
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    >>But many think they know better than the weather systems in place and make very poor decisions based on this false assumption. Do so at your own peril. We have extremely advanced forecasting methods that can plot the path of these monster hurricanes when they are days away. In my estimate residents had nearly a week to plan and to get the hell out of Dodge.

    I agree with almost everything you've said Bubba except the statement above. People didn't really know it was coming until Thursday. The initial forcast was for Florida - in fact I got really made when I found out that the forcast had been shifted to focus on the MS and AL boarder because the national media was still reporting Florida. It wasn't until Thurs that it started to really become clear.

    You have to remember that numourous hurricanes have almost hit New Orleans in the last few years and have unexpectedly turned away. We became complacient. The forcast models, even 24 hrs from impact have a margin of error of 80 miles - that's a huge way for a hurricane...

    That being said - those people should have gotten out. They had all weekend. I do have friends who stayed. All are fine, thank god. One (SW of NOLA) even has power and water - they are running a refugee center now...


    ...I don't know about the toxins...but as long as I can remember they've warned us to stay out of flood waters because of the toxins and the raw sewage...remember, when there's water everywhere the sewage spreads.
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  14. #44
    Software Developer jverkoey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba
    And another thing I cannot see how the water can be so polluted with toxic chemicals. Everyone knows that diluting chemicals in water reduces their potency and their effect on materials. To say that the city is toxic is ridiculous - there would have to be more chemicals in the water.....than there was water in the city. And since we all know that probably 80 to 90 percent of what is in the city is water.....the toxic idea is absurd. More hype and misinformation.
    Well, another basic thing about chemistry though is that water evaporates at a lower temperature than a lot of chemicals...leaving the chemicals and sewage behind...unless I'm misunderstanding something from my chemistry course.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jverkoey
    This is getting tiring ILV, all your posts are succeeding in doing at this point are causing unneeded unrest. Have some common decency for the people here who have actually been affected by this event.

    It's quite sad when someone resorts to flaming people who have just been personally affected by a tragedy.
    Yes in case I didn't mention it before, my heart goes out to those who lost somebody in the devastation. I hope all the given aid it working out and this tragedy can be resolved soon.
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