MS is trying to kill GL... again...

This is a discussion on MS is trying to kill GL... again... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; and this time.... it might work. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boa...;f=12;t=000001...

  1. #1
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    MS is trying to kill GL... again...

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    As long as DirectX continues to only work on Windows, OpenGL will survive.

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    how many game/app companies do you think are gonna take the extra time to write their apps again in OpenGL for linux? far less than do now...

    besides that they're gonna KILL the high end graphics markets... especially the 3d modeler/renderer markets... morons.


    edit:... seriously, they're gonna have to back down on this... toooo many companies are gonna complain.
    Last edited by no-one; 08-06-2005 at 03:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by no-one
    how many game/app companies do you think are gonna take the extra time to write their apps again in OpenGL for linux? far less than do now...

    besides that they're gonna KILL the high end graphics markets... especially the 3d modeler/renederer markets... morons.
    Vista is beta software. Microsoft wouldn't do something so utterly retarded and performance-crippling. 50% of all 3d games and applications use OpenGL, Microsoft can't shut them out or people would stick with Windows XP. On top of that Microsoft can't force all those developers to rewrite their software in DirectX.

    This is most likely just a temporary bug in beta software, otherwise microsoft would see a huge loss of sales if people decide to stick to Windows XP.

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    read the first paragraph of the thread... it's a "current plan" not a bug.

    > Microsoft wouldn't do something so utterly retarded and performance-crippling.

    we are talking about the same MS, right?

    >
    50% of all 3d games and applications use OpenGL, Microsoft can't shut them out or people would stick with Windows XP. On top of that Microsoft can't force all those developers to rewrite their software in DirectX.
    <

    they're not "technically" forcing them... just "gently" coercing them.
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    Designer induced bug... aka "user-friendly feature".

    I'm guessing it won't fly, though, for the reasons mentioned above. I would not be surprised, however, if they still tried to degrade OGL performance in some other manner, by a less drastic margin.
    The word rap as it applies to music is the result of a peculiar phonological rule which has stripped the word of its initial voiceless velar stop.

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    This is not quite as bad as it sounds. As taken from a post I found on another message board (via Slashdot), full screen games and the like will not be effected.
    Just want to get everyone to slow down for a minute and take a hard look at what is and isn't happening.

    Let's basically take the following as hard fact:

    Quote:

    As soon as an ICD is loaded the composited desktop is turned off on Windows Vista. If you want the composited desktop Aeroglass experience, you will need to make your application go through Microsoft's OpenGL implementation, which is layered on top of DirectX. As pointed out earlier, this layering can have performance implications. Their implementation supports OpenGL version 1.4 only, without extension support.


    ICD = Installable Client Driver (i.e. this is what you get when you go to nVidia's site and install their driver.)

    So, when a display driver for OpenGL is loaded, Aeroglass shuts down. First and foremost:
    This has absolutely no implications for fullscreen games on single monitor setups!
    So, with that important detail out of the way, let's look at the scenarios where we DO have a serious problem:
    * Multi-monitor setups
    * Windowed mode applications

    The former is of concern primarily for developers, and I won't really look at it, as it's really just an extension of the latter. So what do windowed mode applications entail? Game editors, scientific and engineering software, tons of academic stuff, modeling and CAD software -- basically, everything that isn't a game. Now, suppose one of these applications starts. Windows again has two options:
    * Give the client app the virtualised MS implementation, and keep Aeroglass running as normal.
    * Shut down Aeroglass, revert to a 2D desktop, and load a real ICD for the app.

    I think it's fairly obvious what the pros and cons of each choice are. The problem at this point, and the objection of the people leading this charge, is that there is no third option:
    * Load a real ICD, but keep Aeroglass running as normal.

    So, that is the real problem. Vista will not allow both a true accelerated OpenGL app and Aeroglass to run concurrently. And that, basically, is how the cards fall right now. The second alternative of shutting down Aeroglass when an OpenGL app does not really bother me -- we're using a 2D desktop right now, and we seem to be getting along fine. Should we be putting pressure on MS to resolve this issue? The answer is a resounding YES. But let's keep our heads here, shall we? Before screaming about this, that, and the other, understand what exactly is and isn't happening.
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    This is why I want to use Linux as my main os...sigh....if only I could get my mom to realize that her e-mail isn't on the computer (she uses Yahoo webmail), and that double clicking isn't hard...
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    Of course, if she can't overcome Double clicking, nearly all Desktop Environments have a single click option.
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    Man... that's twice the physical exertion of a single click... That can be pretty intense.
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    That also wears out your mouse TWICE as fast!!

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    Heh just one of the joys of being a teenager with computer illiterate parents.
    "Oh? I have to double click? Wow this sucks lets go back to the old computer"
    "Huh? You fixed an issue with the ethernet card? DON'T TOUCH THAT COMPUTER YOU MIGHT BREAK IT!"

    The way they talk they act like computers should never be touched by a human being...

    Anyways back on topic:
    Couldn't there simply be an API call to disable the aeroglass look & feel on the fly for programs that -need- to use OpenGL? For some reason I don't see too many companys being happy if Microsoft makes DirectX the only useable graphics library on Windows.
    To code is divine

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    Microsoft isn't forcing people to stick with Windows. Cedega can already run games pretty well and this might make more companies start to consider supporting Linux as well. Maybe it'll backfire nicely for Microsoft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobozz
    Microsoft isn't forcing people to stick with Windows. Cedega can already run games pretty well and this might make more companies start to consider supporting Linux as well. Maybe it'll backfire nicely for Microsoft.
    That's what I'm hopeing for. Since Microsoft has already decided not to implement many features in Vista (WinFS, and being built upon .NET, and I know of others that I can't think of right now) I couldn't imagine many people getting it other than those who like having the latest and greatest, at least not until Microsoft includes several other features they promised.

    The only difference I see in Vista from XP are purely looks, and some minor differences that I think a lot of windows users will probably not like (such as virtual folders, and the directory change) since they'll have to adapt to a new way of thinking, even if the changes aren't major.
    To code is divine

  15. #15
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    I was thinking about what would happen even if it did backfire on microsoft...even in the best case scenario. Lets say everyone switches to linux. Every non-techie yuppie will be asking every other non-techie yuppie which is the best distro, and in the end 90% of the country will end up using only RedHat (example) and it'l start all over again.
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