morals

This is a discussion on morals within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Anytime you copy something without referencing it it is plagerism (even if you wrote the original!). For example, if you ...

  1. #46
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Anytime you copy something without referencing it it is plagerism (even if you wrote the original!). For example, if you write an essay for some class and then later on submit the same essay in a different class, your're actaully plagerising yourself!
    I think it isnt plagiarism here - more like dishonesty by submitting previous work when new work was expected.
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  2. #47
    UT2004 Addict Kleid-0's Avatar
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    I think we should just forget homework, problem solved

  3. #48
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    If someone came and asked you to write a program that they're supposed to write for work (assuming it was that easy) would it be so bad?

  4. #49
    Bob Dole for '08 B0bDole's Avatar
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    Who cares about morals anyways?
    Hmm

  5. #50
    Epo
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    If someone came and asked you to write a program that they're supposed to write for work (assuming it was that easy) would it be so bad?
    I knew a guy that needed to re-write thousands of lines of code to make it more efficient for his company. I helped him out with some sections, for free. Even if I had asked for money, I'd say it would've been okay. I don't think businesses have strict regulations as to where their work comes from, as long as it's going to help the business.

    BUT!

    As mentioned in this thread and the link on the first page, all schools (no matter the level) have rules against turning in somebody elses work as your own. John McBob isn't going to be helped in any way by you doing their programs in the long run, should they decide to stick with programming. John McBob didn't sign up for CP101 just so YOU could get more practice in programming. And, if someone earns a diploma, isn't the key that they do it themselves? I sure wouldn't want my doctor to be a doctor only because he paid $100 for the final exam answers, why would I want a should-be-dropout coding my operating system?

    So, even for just the fact that there are strict rules, explicitly stated, then yeah, it's wrong and unethical.

    But, ethics isn't always the right path to choose. If someone offers me $100 to code Hello World, hell yeah I'm taking it. If a good friend of mine's gonna fail an assignment cause they can't get their heads around the concepts, of course I'll write something for them. With that though (and yeah, I know some people will say I'm just covering here and I really wouldn't...) but I'll go through the code with them, in person, until I'm really convinced they understand. I don't know about your schools, but at my university, the profs are retards. They throw out a few key words in lectures and expect the students to do the rest, and from a point of view of myself, who's been programming for a long time now, it seems completely unreasonable. So perhaps ethics does still play a role in this situation.

    And besides, I'd rather have $20 than not have $20 bucks. If you stay ethical your whole life, well...enjoy eating the table scraps from all your superiors. Not to mention you won't be any fun at all...and boring. Is it ethical to knock over mailboxes at 3 in the morning after you've had too much to drink? Maybe not. But man, it's fun.
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  6. #51
    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    If you stay ethical your whole life, well...enjoy eating the table scraps from all your superiors. Not to mention you won't be any fun at all...and boring. Is it ethical to knock over mailboxes at 3 in the morning after you've had too much to drink? Maybe not. But man, it's fun.
    Very dubious claim. (On both accounts.)

    I don't claim to be incorruptible, but I do find ways to have fun without intentionally destroying other people's property.
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  7. #52
    Epo
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    Very dubious claim. (On both accounts.)
    ...yeah...perhaps slightly exaggerated there...I was just caught up in the moment
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  8. #53
    UT2004 Addict Kleid-0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kleid-0
    You have to take risks in life ILoveVectors! Don't listen to these people, they're safe, they're in a comfort zone! I mean if someone gave me a gun and would pay me $100 to kill someone, whadareya gonna do!? You go on a killing spree, that's what I say!
    Quote Originally Posted by Epo
    If you stay ethical your whole life, well...enjoy eating the table scraps from all your superiors. Not to mention you won't be any fun at all...and boring. Is it ethical to knock over mailboxes at 3 in the morning after you've had too much to drink? Maybe not. But man, it's fun.
    I think we're on the same level Epo! lol

  9. #54
    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    Kleid-0... You may wish to know that your conclusions do not logically follow from anything.

    Perhaps you've had a bit too much UT on the brain lately?
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight
    I think it isnt plagiarism here - more like dishonesty by submitting previous work when new work was expected.
    Bah...why is that dishonest? You've already done the work once. Why do it again? When you write logical proofs, you aren't called to prove every thereom again. One of the focuses of OOP is reusability of code. How is writing a paper any different?
    If I did your homework for you, then you might pass your class without learning how to write a program like this. Then you might graduate and get your degree without learning how to write a program like this. You might become a professional programmer without knowing how to write a program like this. Someday you might work on a project with me without knowing how to write a program like this. Then I would have to do you serious bodily harm. - Jack Klein

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epo
    If you stay ethical your whole life, well...enjoy eating the table scraps from all your superiors. Not to mention you won't be any fun at all...and boring. Is it ethical to knock over mailboxes at 3 in the morning after you've had too much to drink? Maybe not. But man, it's fun.
    Would you be having fun replacing your mailbox some morning after a drunk guy smashed it off? I can think of things that would be more fun than that.

  12. #57
    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianorain
    Bah...why is that dishonest? You've already done the work once. Why do it again? When you write logical proofs, you aren't called to prove every thereom again. One of the focuses of OOP is reusability of code. How is writing a paper any different?
    It more has to deal with the terms of the class/assignment (whatever it may be for). If there is no restriction against reusing what you've previously written, then there is no problem. It's when there is a restriction against this that it is dishonest, and, from my experience, at least, this restriction is usually implied, and the student should use his common sense (i.e. sure, refering back to previously proved theorems is fine, but generally, in something like, say, a creative writing class, the point is more the writing process).
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  13. #58
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Bah...why is that dishonest?
    It is dishonest because it is against the rules - new work was expected, and the student blatantly attempts to submit existing work, though it be his own.

    When you write logical proofs, you aren't called to prove every thereom again. One of the focuses of OOP is reusability of code. How is writing a paper any different?
    In both cases I think it is different - the problem lies precisely in that the student is not doing anything new (when he was supposed to do something new). It isnt writing a proof using existing theorems, it is publishing the theorems again (when a new result was expected to be published). It isnt extending a class, it is taking the class verbatim and using it (when a complete re-write was expected).
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight
    It is dishonest because it is against the rules
    No. Just because something is against the rules doesn't make it immoral.
    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight
    the problem lies precisely in that the student is not doing anything new.
    If the point of the assignment is to practice writing a paper (such as in a research methods or creative writing class), then I agree. In that case, the end result is not the focus.

    However, if the professor is more interested in the paper than the process, then why do the work again? Having a previously written paper that has already been marked over by a professor is a great tool for improvement. Since the paper will most likely be for a different class, the paper will need to be modified anyway to fit the requirements of that particular assignment.

    I'm glad I didn't have any professors with that sort of inane requirement. If it is a requirement for you, then I agree that it would be immoral to decieve the professor. However, I don't think that the general act of submitting work previously done by yourself is immoral.
    If I did your homework for you, then you might pass your class without learning how to write a program like this. Then you might graduate and get your degree without learning how to write a program like this. You might become a professional programmer without knowing how to write a program like this. Someday you might work on a project with me without knowing how to write a program like this. Then I would have to do you serious bodily harm. - Jack Klein

  15. #60
    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    Well, there is some judgment on your part.
    If it is expected that you submit something newly written (whether or not the writing process is the point), then you are being dishonest by submitting something you had already written. In most scenarios where you are expected to write something new, however, I find it unlikely that it would be explicitly stated.

    Though, I think I am just paraphrasing what you said.

    Cheers
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