Bush vs. Kerry

This is a discussion on Bush vs. Kerry within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I know there is another thread about this already, but I purposefully made a new thread for this different topic. ...

  1. #1
    Registered User jlou's Avatar
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    Bush vs. Kerry

    I know there is another thread about this already, but I purposefully made a new thread for this different topic.

    My question is for people who voted for Bush. Why did you make that decision? I tend to be more liberal than conservative, and there were things Bush did in the last four years that I don't agree with, which is why I voted for Kerry. I can think of a few reasons why some would vote for Bush, but I haven't seen anybody actually use those in their justification.

    I'm just trying to understand.

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    Bob Dole for '08 B0bDole's Avatar
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    Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda....it's all in the past now.

    All we can do is pray, and hope that Bush finishes the war in Iraq the right way, and pray that he doesn't mess things up that much more than he already did.
    Hmm

  3. #3
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    I voted for Bush:

    - I am a fiscal conservative. The economy thrives when capitalism is allowed to operate naturally.

    - "group vs group" mentality is disgusting. Look into the "veil of ignorance" principle. You'll see that most of what liberals fight for violates this ethical principle horribly.

    - I believe we are in a war with radical Islam which lives around the world in lots of countries and it is no longer acceptable to accept our status as the infidel that isn't permitted to enter a muslim land.
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

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    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    FYB -- The Republicans aren't particularly advocates of laissez faire capitalism. Granted, much more so than the Democrats.
    The word rap as it applies to music is the result of a peculiar phonological rule which has stripped the word of its initial voiceless velar stop.

  5. #5
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    yes, I'm aware of that. Two major parties. You have to pick one and run with it. Nobody is perfect.
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

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    Bob Dole for '08 B0bDole's Avatar
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    Nobody is perfect.
    God is
    Hmm

  7. #7
    Registered User jlou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FillYourBrain
    I voted for Bush:

    - I am a fiscal conservative. The economy thrives when capitalism is allowed to operate naturally.

    - "group vs group" mentality is disgusting. Look into the "veil of ignorance" principle. You'll see that most of what liberals fight for violates this ethical principle horribly.

    - I believe we are in a war with radical Islam which lives around the world in lots of countries and it is no longer acceptable to accept our status as the infidel that isn't permitted to enter a muslim land.
    Interesting points.

    - I am not really a fiscal liberal or conservative. I have not done much research into the topic, but I will admit that based on the simple explanations the Democrat's fiscal policies seem to make more sense to me than the Republicans. I do, however, feel that this is a completely legitimate reason to vote for Bush.

    - Based on my understanding of the "veil of ignorance" principle, I'm not sure how the social agenda of liberals violates that principle. Do you have examples? In my opinion, the more conservative social ideology violates that principle consistently. That is one of the main reasons why I tend to vote more for Democrats. Examples include gay rights and church/state issues.

    - The president's handling of the war in Iraq was the kicker for me. In my opinion, you should be sure about what you are doing whenever you do something, and if that something is going to war, multiply that by 1000 before you do so. The simple fact that the President and his advisors pushed for and engaged in the war in Iraq without being sure, and despite the concerns and protests of so many Americans is disturbing, especially after it was found out that a huge part of his basis for going to war was wrong.

    At the time of the war, I wasn't sure if it was a good idea. I thought it would be easier than it has been, and I thought and still think that having a democracy in Iraq is much better for the whole world than having Hussein still in power. However, I think the benefits of moving the world towards a time of global cooperation outweighed the urgency of ousting Hussein. This is especially true now that we have found out that much of the intelligence was wrong. I would very much prefer someone who made the right decision despite hemming and hawing over someone who doesn't seem to acknowledge the possibility that he was wrong.

    I agree that America must protect itself from a myriad of threats, but I think the greater solution is to convince the world (or adapt to their convincing arguments about) what needs to be done.

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    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FillYourBrain
    yes, I'm aware of that. Two major parties. You have to pick one and run with it. Nobody is perfect.
    You don't have to pick one of those two. The fact that people refuse to actually see this fact is the factor that really hampers third parties.
    The word rap as it applies to music is the result of a peculiar phonological rule which has stripped the word of its initial voiceless velar stop.

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    Wannabe Coding God
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0bDole
    God is
    Explain the Toedicé problem then.
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    They say that if you play a Windows Install CD backwords, you hear satanic messages. That's nothing; play it forward and it installs Windows.

  10. #10
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlou
    - Based on my understanding of the "veil of ignorance" principle, I'm not sure how the social agenda of liberals violates that principle. Do you have examples?
    ok, for those who don't know what the veil of ignorance is about, basically if you're going to be making a policy, it has to be able to fit for people regardless of who they are. You aren't to consider what the characteristics of the person are when making that policy and it has to be acceptable when applied to any person.

    So you asked for an example. Lets start with affirmative action. Since we are to have no prior knowledge of the characteristics of the individual beforehand, the statement "White skin should not be preferred to black skin when hiring" can not be used. A more appropriate and unbiased statement would be "Skin color should not be considered when hiring".

    With the "veil of ignorance" corrected statement in place, affirmative action can not be reasonably considered as it violates the principle that skin color should not be considered.

    This is the basic idea. If you think in a group vs group way, you tend to make unfair policy.
    Last edited by FillYourBrain; 11-03-2004 at 03:06 PM.
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  11. #11
    Registered User jlou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FillYourBrain
    ok, for those who don't know what the veil of ignorance is about, basically if you're going to be making a policy, it has to be able to fit for people regardless of who they are. You aren't to consider what the characteristics of the person are when making that policy and it has to be acceptable when applied to any person.

    So you asked for an example. Lets start with affirmative action. Since we are to have no prior knowledge of the characteristics of the individual beforehand, the statement "White skin should not be preferred to black skin when hiring" can not be used. A more appropriate and unbiased statement would be "Skin color should not be considered when hiring".

    With the "veil of ignorance" corrected statement in place, affirmative action can not be reasonably considered as it violates the principle that skin color should not be considered.

    This is the basic idea. If you think in a group vs group way, you tend to make unfair policy.
    Ok, but I can give you another way of looking at affirmative action, which is the way most supporters of affirmative action view it, that could be supported by a view through a veil of ignorance. I'm not saying I support affirmative action, because this explanation assumes something that I do not necessarily know to be true, but those who do support affirmative action are clearly within the veil of ignorance concept.

    The proper way to look at affirmative action from the standpoint of a veil of ignorance is:

    "Skin color should not be considered when hiring, unless members of a certain race have been suppressed because of their race in the past and therefore current members of that race are at a disadvantage when it comes to the other considerations for the job/school. Once the extra help is effective in leveling the playing field, then skin color should again be removed from consideration."


    So, I submit that the example you gave is not a valid example of a liberal ideal that violates the "veil of ignorance" principle, and I still say that issues such as gay rights and church/state separation do violate that principle. That is why I still tend to prefer the social values of liberals over conservatives.

    As for my original question, I can still only see one completely legitimate argument in favor of Bush, that being if you think fiscal conservatism is more appropriate. The other arguments still don't make sense to me.

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    Even death may die... Dante Shamest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0bDole
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    God's perfection is demonstrated by creating imperfect beings like us.

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    Rad gcn_zelda's Avatar
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    Vote for Gore.

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    Toaster Zach L.'s Avatar
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    Gore invented god.
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    I don't why people would vote for Bush but I can think of many reasons why they would vote for Kerry!

    1. Kerry would help the middle-class more then the rich!

    2. He would do the right thing in the war (most likely)

    3. Bush screwed things up and does NOT deserve anouterh chance after that.

    4. We could have spent 200 billion dallars on things that the USA needs. Such as we could have bought houses for the home less, and helped the people that need help in the USA first! I thought our own country would come first. But not to Bush!!!!
    Last edited by Rune Hunter; 11-03-2004 at 05:27 PM.

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