This news story will make you mad as @!$#

This is a discussion on This news story will make you mad as @!$# within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I have been in the work force since the late '70's. Call me a whining whinger if you like - ...

  1. #16
    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    I have been in the work force since the late '70's. Call me a whining whinger if you like - I really don't care.

    I was an employee of a Danish firm, bought out by an American Corporation, asset stripped, then closed with the loss of all but a few jobs, (people forced to relocate to other countries).

    My question is, why is the "quality of life" in the US more important then the same anywhere else? I am not making a personal comment against any one person, but it does appear that employees in the US are uncomfortable about being on the receiving end of something their businesses routinely hand out around the globe.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

  2. #17
    Climber spoon_'s Avatar
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    I really don't believe all the B.S. I am reading. WTF is wrong with you people?

    "I wouldn't care if I lost my $80,000/year job and had to get another job for $15,000/year - as long as it helped someone over there."

    That is rediculous, absolutely retarded to think that. Even if it does help some Indian over in India or where ever, it DOESN'T HELP YOU. It doesn't help the economy YOU ARE IN. Companies are doing this for the TAX BREAKS, and of course, cheaper employees, but I bet once the tax breaks are gone (thx john kerry, cya bush (aka super llama)), jobs will start returning to where they belong.

    It is wrong for an American company to send jobs overseas because of a tax break. Thats all there is to it.

    But I'm a whiner because I don't want to lose my job I worked so damn hard to get. I don't give a rats ass about the Indians getting our jobs. I care about having a GOOD JOB to support MY FAMILY. It's about having enough money to support my family in a reasonable fashion. It's about having enough money to pay the high taxes we here in America pay. It's about helping my child through the college he/she earns his/her way into. To hell with India, their country is like it is because of them and no one else. They are in control of their economy, HELP YOURSELFS. (GO Modernization Theory).

    And WTF are these mod edits? Jesus, this world is going straight to hell. The kids being born in the 90's are going to be a bunch of sissy ass clowns and everyone will turn out gay. Wah wah wah, he cussed, wah wah wah.

    oh and, sorry for the personal attacks, i tend to respond to stupidity with SUPREME stupidity, you know, give you a taste of your own medicine.

    jlou: if you really care soooooo much about the poor indians, why don't you join the peace core and go help out eh?

    adrianx: bought out, but you still have your job. Do you understand what is going on here? American works are forced to TRAIN the person they are losing their job (because of a tax break, yep yep, emphasis on the tax break, that is the real problem here, plz vote john kerry thx) to or they lose their severence pay.
    Last edited by spoon_; 04-29-2004 at 07:33 AM.
    {RTFM, KISS}

  3. #18
    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    >>> but you still have your job

    Nope, I didn't want to move to San Diego, I was made redundant. The manager installed in the firm to do the asset stripping was an American, nice enough guy, nothing personal. Since he was on a fixed term contract, he was admitted into Denmark on a special tax incentive scheme whereby overseas "experts" were permitted to work in Denmark for up to 3 years and pay only 20% tax.

    We were going to his meetings, telling him what our assets were and how they could be ported, and paying 52% tax at the same time.

    Now, tell me again why what you are doing is worse.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

  4. #19
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    I'm about as liberal as they come, but saying "must be a Republican" is really ignorant. EVERY poilitician is a friend of big business; whoever's in power is just the one who gets blamed.

    I need to go take a shower - I feel dirty now.

  5. #20
    Its not rocket science vasanth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoon_
    But I'm a whiner because I don't want to lose my job I worked so damn hard to get. I don't give a rats ass about the Indians getting our jobs.

    To hell with India, their country is like it is because of them and no one else. They are in control of their economy, HELP YOURSELFS. (GO Modernization Theory).
    You are right.. each country is incharge of their own economy.. you play your game we play ours **to get more jobs imported****...

  6. #21
    Its not rocket science vasanth's Avatar
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    and about this gloabl economy <Mod edit> you are all talking about.. it was first your countries which started it wanting market access into other asian countries.. well now its working the other way round and we dint complain when your multinationals sold us your produce and we dont complain now either.... **puts on flame proof jacket**

  7. #22
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    > we dint complain when your multinationals sold us your produce and we dont complain now either...

    How did that affect Indian jobs?

  8. #23
    Its not rocket science vasanth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govtcheez
    > we dint complain when your multinationals sold us your produce and we dont complain now either...

    How did that affect Indian jobs?
    Because of your multinationsla dumping good our local industries suffered and many of them closed down leading to job losses.... But no one complained since the good were of better quality and in some cases cheaper because of mass production but this was in the 80's and 90's... Old story

  9. #24
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    Those who don't care about those people whose jobs' are outsourced, how would you like it if you work in school, through college, and in the workplace to get a decent paying job, and then all of a sudden, your job is gone?

  10. #25
    Software Developer jverkoey's Avatar
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    I'm going to flat out say that I'm not in the workforce, to avoid any flaming caused by this.

    What I'd like to say is that I'm a Junior in High School and one thing I've noticed is that more and more people that I know (as peers) who were once willing to go in to the technology field are now reluctant to do it, because they don't believe that they will have a job. It seems a lot of the people who have posted here so far are in college/university/working and all have very strong opinions. I just want to point out that all of this outsourcing isn't exactly doing justice for some of the teens out there today looking towards going in to technology.

    And without as many people going in to technology, how can we expect to have a strong future in tech?

    You may disagree with me, that's fine, this is merely my opinion and what I think.

  11. #26
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Outsourcing in itself is flawed economically.

    The very companies that made their wealth are actually destroying that source of wealth. If their are not any good paying jobs in a country then that self-same company cannot do business in that country simply because they must slash prices so low as to hardly turn a profit.

    So when you continually outsource or over-outsource you are simply destroying the very customer base that built your business. Outsource all of the jobs to some other country and save money - at the current profit levels. However there will be a point at which, if every other company outsources as well, where no one in the country will be able to afford another companies products thus reducing profit levels. Then what is that company going to do...attempt to market their product in another country where they must lower the price in order to even sell the thing simply because so many companies are paying low wages in that country?? I think not.

    Destroying your own customer base is akin to financial suicide. Unless their are high paying jobs or a high amount of wealth in the country or one of the countries you are marketing in...you will not make it.

    So go ahead and outsource American businesses and I will laugh my ass off when you no longer have the customers you used to because you outsourced them too. It is a downward spiral and it won't work or last. So you can outsource some to remain competitive which in itself is a big misnomer. You might slash your costs but eventually if other companies do it as well they will slash their costs and your profits because there won't be anyone who can afford your product.

    It's like price wars. No one wins in a price war and often smaller businesses just dont make it when the pressure is to sell cheaper and cheaper. This is a huge economical imbalance and just like price wars....no one will win.

  12. #27
    ¡Amo fútbol!
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    I agree w/Bubba. Everyone knows the famous story how Ford increased his sales. (If you don't, he doubled his employees wages so that they could buy his cars)

  13. #28
    train spotter
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    >>it was first your countries which started it wanting market access into other asian countries.. well now its working the other way round<<

    That’s the bottom line. The corporations started this, to get increased markets and lower wage costs. No one cared at the time and now it is too late to stop it.

    I have had to move into implementation from R&D.

    >>My question is, why is the "quality of life" in the US more important then the same anywhere else?<<

    With an election in the US we are hearing more about the adverse effects it is having. I am wondering if it will disappear again after the election or if we are seeing the start of a real backlash. My bet is on the former.

    >>If worker A in country A is cheaper than worker B in country B, its a no-brainer which one the manager/CEO will choose.<<

    Not really, if you consider the long term.

    Outsourcing will reduce the buying power of the population, by reducing its salary / disposable income. Combined with increased living costs (house prices especially) you may actually reduce the demand for your goods/service.

    Also you reduce the experience level. If we get another Y2K like situation and suddenly need masses of developers, they might not be available.

    Its a no brainer because it will make the CEO a lot of money. Spin it the right way and we may not notice until it is too late.

    >> It's really the same idea as when companies move jobs from big expensive cities to smaller towns with lower costs of living and can therefore pay lower salaries and make more money.<<

    At least then the money stays in the local economy. That is the workers still pay taxes and buy their goods at local stores. For each local worker unemployed, one is employed so there is no net change in employment and so low net cost to the economy.

    >>who cares if i lose my 80,000 dollar a year job and have to work at blockbuster for 15,000 a year.<<

    The government, as it is missing out on those extra tax dollars. The local shops, where you would have spent the other dollars.

    >>Cost of production go up and companies will have lower revenue and profits.<<

    Why would cost go up? Why do profits have to rise exponentially each year? (think about where the profit comes from)

    >>I look at those (myself included) who could be affected negatively by it, and then those who would be affected positively by it, and I fail to see the reason for anger.<<

    Its because the profit gained is not returned to those generating it. We the consumer/taxpayer are adversely affected for no gain. We will pay higher taxes to compensate for those sent overseas. (remember goods and services also are taxed ie fuel so when you don't buy as much it costs the government)

    And when the corporations find another country that is more 'cost effective' (willing to pay and tax less) they will move again.
    "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered."
    George Best

    "If you are going through hell....keep going."
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  14. #29
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    A truly globalized economy will result in aggressive division between classes as more competeting forces are at work. Sure the business owners high up will gain some short terms profit but the result will be marginalized economy only slightly better than India's.

    I find arguments that Indian workers are working for drastically cheaper wages sort of invalid because the cost of living in India is comparatively cheaper than in the US. American workers cannot compete unless if the cost of living in America goes down.

    If individual workers were being considered by ability, then it would be one thing. Capitalism thrives because of individual merit and sense of opportunism. But these jobs were exported not in a case by case fashion but to the lowest bidder.
    Last edited by okinrus; 04-29-2004 at 11:17 PM.

  15. #30
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    Very well put novacain and okinrus. CNN did a special on this some time back and even leading economists said that exporting jobs would simply deteriorate and already deteriorated economy. They themselves even said that this is a no-win situation and truly at the bottom of all of it...spin it how you may....is simply corporate greed...nothing else.

    And...if you will look at some figures being put out by honest corporations....production costs are not on the rise as most think and definitely not increasing at such a rate that companies cannot make a profit.

    Having had a business in prior times I can say that if you pour money into the local economy through your wages, then that local economy will in turn pour money back into your business which, in turn, will allow you to pour more money back into the economy by raising wages. It's simple economics, simple mathematics, extremely simple to grasp and it works. But if you horde the money you make and claim that you are not increasing wages due to rising productions costs (which I believe has just become a catch phrase for greed) and do not increase your wages then they, your employees, cannot pour into the local economy aka: spend their money....and then those who would have profited from them cannot in turn invest back into your business. The cycle ends at your doorstep simpy because of your own greed. It is extremely important to pour money back into the economy if you really want to stay in business and maintain a healthy and profitable customer base.

    And if you truly think costs are rising so high then why are we finding out that many many many businesses are involved in huge scandals relating to inflated cost figures. There is a recent one in which a company over-charged the government to feed the soldiers in Iraq by over a million dollars ....in the name of cost.
    Yes costs do increase over time but not nearly as fast as to warrant the current mass exodus of jobs. It will come back to haunt us and some companies here in the United States have recognized this and are beefing up staffing here as well as overseas. In other words, they are seeing new growth in new areas and growth in already existing areas...not just transfer growth from one area to the next. Think about it when you simply transfer a job from one country to the next that is not growth because you have not created anything and, in fact, you have very much hurt your local economy because you are taking away from it....not adding to it.

    So if you want to grow a business then go ahead and create jobs overseas for I'm not against that at all....but don't destroy jobs in one place to claim you are 'creating' jobs in another. It's a misnomer....you are simply relocating the same job and perhaps, but not always, reducing the experience level and educational level of those filling that transferred position.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 04-30-2004 at 04:02 PM.

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