A Good Discussion - Stay on Topic

This is a discussion on A Good Discussion - Stay on Topic within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; At the risk of creating a thread that could become a horrible flame war, I would like to start a ...

  1. #1
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    A Good Discussion - Stay on Topic

    At the risk of creating a thread that could become a horrible flame war, I would like to start a little discussion. Mods, If this becomes a flame war, feel free to close the thread.

    I have been thinking a lot about the current debate about the phrase "under God" in the USA Pledge of Allegiance. I am sure many of you know about this debate.

    I have attempted to take a non-biased viewpoint and look at the issue from all sides, and draw conclusions based on what I see. Of course it is always difficult to be completely non-biased, because we never are. So I am sure my conclusions have bias in them although I try to be as non-bias as possible.

    But anyways, read my viewpoint here:

    http://www.xanga.com/dpru

    It is the most recent entry, so you wont have to scroll down at all (except to read it, as it is pretty long).

    Now, after you have read it, let's discuss it. (Read the entire thing. If you do not, then you will not get the entire message.).

    Feel free to comment with your thoughts.
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  2. #2
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    How do you intend to "build up" atheists?
    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    You think it's ok to infringe on the rights of the minority just because you think taking religion out of government will make people unhappy?

    Also, "In God We Trust" was added in the early 20th century; it clearly doesn't have anything to do with the foundations of the country.

    Finally, I always see "the US was founded on Christian beliefs" in arguments like this, but have never seen it pointed out where. Just because we share some rules with Christianity means nothing. Most religions share those same ideas.

  4. #4
    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    >>>
    Also, "In God We Trust" was added in the early 20th century; it clearly doesn't have anything to do with the foundations of the country.
    <<<

    It depends on your definition of "early" I suppose, but in fact it was added in 1954. It was added for political purposes to show the righteousness of the US as contrasted with the openly aetheist Soviet Union.

    Since it was added for political reasons and the stated aim of the US government is to seperate state from church, it should never have been added, and should certainly be removed.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

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    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    You're a little confused, adrian. "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50s to differentiate us from the godless Commies (which DP addresses in his journal entry). "In God We Trust" was added to currency starting with the penny in 1909 and the dime in 1916

    http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...-we-trust.html

  6. #6
    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    >>> the phrase "under God" in the USA Pledge of Allegiance

    No Cheez, read Davids original post, it is that he was talking about not the currency, which is a seperate, but equally valid case in my opinion.

    *** EDIT ***

    You were talking about the currency, I see.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

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    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    I understand that, but I wasn't. In the site he links to, he says
    But was not our country founded upon Christian beliefs and principles? Do we not have phrases such as "In God we trust" on our own currency?
    I was just saying that they weren't added at the beginning of the country, either.

    edit: problem solved
    edit2: This WILL become a flame war, and you should know that already.

  8. #8
    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    In God we Trust first appeared on the 2 cent coin in 1864.

    There is a history here.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

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    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    Whoops, I missed that line. Still, it's 100 years after the country was founded.

    edit: That's the same link I posted, adrian

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    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    This WILL become a flame war, and you should know that already
    Hey i've been good so far! :P
    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    Indeed.

    *** EDIT ***

    That was intended to be a reply to Cheez!
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

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    RoD
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    Redundantly Redundant RoD's Avatar
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    Ok, back on track. "In God We Trust"; this statement in and of itsself requires you to believe in god. It is asanine to trust in something you do not believe in. How can we force children to state something that they are too young to yet understand?

    It is not until early or late highschool that most kids know what it is they believe in, yet in first grade on we have them pledging to trust in god. Maybe they dont believe in god? Maybe they dont believe in this country?

    The problem is that we dont know, and it is unfair for us to make this choice for them.

    Beyond this, how do we justify this to not be like a colt, or a communism? The majority see's this line as a support for your country, and nothing more. This is no more different than the chants that Hitler taught his troops during the holocoust (sp?).

    This is because kids who do not participate are often disciplined. Now they have changed the rules so that you dont have to say the pledge, but where does that get us? It gets us segregated and kids are being ridiculed for not believeing in this statement.

    It is forcing them to feel un-american, because others tell them so. Now we have a young child torn between what they feel is right and what everyone tells them is right.

    I could go on but hey, why bother.

  13. #13
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govtcheez
    You think it's ok to infringe on the rights of the minority just because you think taking religion out of government will make people unhappy?

    Also, "In God We Trust" was added in the early 20th century; it clearly doesn't have anything to do with the foundations of the country.

    Finally, I always see "the US was founded on Christian beliefs" in arguments like this, but have never seen it pointed out where. Just because we share some rules with Christianity means nothing. Most religions share those same ideas.
    I said read the entire thing Govt, otherwise you wont understand what I was trying to say. If you read it carefully, you would see that I do not express any opinions at all until the very end (except for one paragraph in the beginning where I say what I believe), but rather I only make observations.

    I don't have a clue where you got the idea that I thought it was right to infringe upon the rights of the minority. I was explicitly arguing against that.

    The paragraph about the USA being founded on Christian beliefs was NOT an argument, simply an observation. If you read the entire thing you would know that.

    My argument is stated in the last paragraph and in the last paragraph only.

    [edit]

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde
    How do you intend to "build up" atheists?
    Yes I know I explicitly left out Athiests from the list in the last paragraph. That is because off hand I do not know exactly how to deal with that issue, but that would rather require discussion and debate. Some would argue that Athiesm is a religion, but others would argue that Athiesm is the antithesis of religion.

    Like I said, I did not work out the details, I just came up with the general concept. Discussions like this one help to point out flaws in the argument, hammer out details, and even add to the argument with new material.

    [/edit]
    Last edited by DavidP; 04-19-2004 at 11:33 AM.
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  14. #14
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    I did read the whole thing, chief.

    > The paragraph about the USA being founded on Christian beliefs was NOT an argument, simply an observation. If you read the entire thing you would know that.

    Again, I did read the entire thing. I observe that the USA was founded on Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist beliefs, as well. I've got as much proof as you do.

    > My main point is: why tear a good institution down when it can be built up?

    So, you want to build up religion in all places, which is not only against the Constitution but will also alienate pretty much everyone out there? Your feelings aside, how do you think JoeBob from Tennessee is going to feel when he starts seeing Islamic stuff everywhere?

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    Board Conservative UnregdRegd's Avatar
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    I think what's fairest for people of all religious and nonreligious beliefs and most consistent with the 1st Amendment is for the government to avoid making any overtly religious statements through the currency, public education system, law, etc. Removing "In God we trust" and "Under God" recognizes the sensibilities of non-Christians while not demeaning Christians' beliefs: It's not being replaced by "One nation / Free of religion" or anything like that.

    Public schools do not need to designate prayer times. Religious students can pray on their own, privately, before they get to school, as they sit down to eat lunch, and whenever else they want to pray privately. If they want to worship aloud publicly, they can always go to ther church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or whatever their house of worship might be. Public education should be to teach children how to think critically and independently and provide them a basic framework of knowledge for later self-improvement; it should not be a place of religious indoctrination.
    I am a programmer. My first duty is to God, then to nation, then to employer, then to family, then to friends, then to computer, and finally to myself. I code with dignity, honor, and integrity.

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