"white only" scholarship

This is a discussion on "white only" scholarship within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally posted by ober I'm sick of minorities today thinking they need to be "repaid" or recieve some kind of ...

  1. #16
    Banned master5001's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ober
    I'm sick of minorities today thinking they need to be "repaid" or recieve some kind of benefit for what happened to their ancestors. STFU.
    Agreed. And in reponse to axon 'theirs' is just a placeholder for what ever it is that they have been deprived of. Some groups were slaves while other groups were robbed and slaughtered.

    However, the reason for affirmative action isn't necessarily to give back something for some past injustice, rather its to show that despite past injustices its not too late to accept sed group. Of course, I think using an overtly racist techinique to show that we as a society aren't racist is a little much, but if you understand why the system is in its current state you can perhaps see it as a necessary evil.

  2. #17
    Its not rocket science vasanth's Avatar
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    hmm i am not implying anyhting.. but this is similar to the benifits given to the dalits(the so called lower cast) in my country(India)...

    A dalit student get a lot of scholar ship etc etc even priority in government jobs..even if he can aford education.. But what the academics say is that they deserve some kind scholar ship for another 10 years.. the reason.. our ancestors kept them down, never gave them the proper freedom and stuff which made them loose out in the race to be equal with the rest of the people..

    SO we are paying for our grandfather mistakes... But our constitution will says this reservation will be removed after some time .. by then according to them the dalits should have reached equality with the general population...


    THough i am angered that a dalit student gets more benifit i feel its right when i think in his terms.. He dint get a fare chance since his parents were not educated due to my ancestors fault.. so my tax money goes to educate him for free..

    something to think about...
    and sorry for my vauge english.

  3. #18
    Banned master5001's Avatar
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    Actually your english is fine. Its nice to know our country isn't the only one that applies such backward logic. At least in India there is a finite time frame. As for the US I'm sure the only way to stop it would be to initiate some sort of ammendment to the constitition. But if I haven't already made it perfectly clear what would we ammend it to? I know that paying for past mistakes isn't completely fair but I think the only reason it is done is because it is the simplest way to try and be fair without anyone paying large amounts of money to a group.

    Simply put I am not a fan of affirmative action. Though my comments may make it seem like otherwise is true I am not. However, I truly don't see what else could be done. If affirmative action were to be removed this very second I am sure there would be backlash. And I'd prefer being screwed from time to time over living in a divided nation where people may assume because you don't want affirmative action you are a racist. I don't believe it really has an intellegent place in our country today but I think it would be stupid to say that removing it would be a seamless act that everyone would be okay with.

    Food for thought though, my moms family is Irish and immigrated here during the potato famine. The Iris are a poor group of white people who were treated just as badly as many other minority groups but in all truth this doesn't make me mad nor do expect people to treat me differently nor do expect anything that I didn't earn myself. The bottom line is that for every one of me there are at least (and i'm being conservative) two people who will "say you should fight back!"

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    I've got a couple of short points to make.

    First of all, another echo to ober, I was thinking the exact same words.

    Second, I never had slaves. I never forced segregation. I shouldn't be excluded from scholarships and college application benefits because I'm white. That's just more discrimination.

    Third, having been to Africa very recently, and having seen how the blacks live there, anyone who is expecting repayment for having been taken out is an idiot. Yes slavery was tough, but that was for the ancestors of today's African-Americans. Where they are now, they're way better off. If anything, you should only be asking for repayment on things that happen now.

    Four, about things that happen now. Don't expect legal immunity because you're black. As soon as a black celebrity is arrested for something like child molestation, the race card is played inevitably EVERY time.

  5. #20
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    Thank you to those of you (axon, sean, and ober) who stated my thoughts in a much better way.

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    http://forums.about.com/ab-atheism/m...?msg=27434.120

    I suggest all of you that "echo[ed] ober" should read this post made in response to a thread on the same topic, in particular the last half. It is quite long so I will qoute the relevant portions here

    In an ideal world, what one wants is equality both in procedure and in outcome -- we want people to be treated the same, and we want them to end up getting the same level of goods. But we're not in an ideal world, and the historical record seems clear that if we implement race-blind policies, we don't get race-neutral outcomes. Instead, we get harm done to minorities -- fewer blacks in the top universities, fewer blacks in important positions in companies, fewer blacks owning their own businesses, fewer blacks voting, fewer blacks living in better neighborhoods, and so on.

    Those are bad outcomes, and presumably we think they are outcomes which wouldn't occur in an ideal situation. We thus want to make those outcomes stop happening. That requires abandoning race-neutral treatment for a time, in order to achieve race-neutral outcomes. The manner of abandonment, as Adrian has rightly stressed, can be very different in different situations. In some situations, we admit to universities minority applicants whose manifest academic record is less strong than the average admittee, on the theory that the latent intellectual capacities of the minority applicant may not be well-expressed by the academic record, since the applicant has had to deal with an inferior educational background and greater extra-academic obstacles. In employment, we treat as prima facie evidence of discriminatory hiring practices simple numerical disparities in racial makeup of a company's employees. In government practice, we make available business startup funds to minority applicants that aren't available to the general population.

    I don't see why it would be surprising for such actions to reduce discrimination in outcome. It seems to me that the reduction of discrimination in outcome is of greater importance than the reduction of discrimination in procedure and attitude, both because people frankly suffer much more from discrimination in outcome than they do from discrimination in procedure and attitude and because discriminatory attitudes typically piggyback on discriminatory outcomes -- so long as, and largely only so long as, blacks are poorer, segregated, and less well educated, they will be treated as socially inferior by many people.

    The thought that perfect legal neutrality in treatment will lead to neutrality in outcome seems to me to be a simple historical fantasy. If you take all the cultural goodies and give them to one person, and then tell everyone "OK, now play fair, and don't take more than your share", then the one initial beneficee is just going to keep doing better -- in fact, better and better over time, as he reaps the benefits of his starting capital.

    There are, of course, legitimate questions to be asked about the propriety of particular implementations of the general strategy of affirmative action, and there is a genuine need for a careful statement of the underlying rationale of affirmative action (I hope I've at least gestured in that latter direction here). But I admit to finding it distressing that such a simple-minded and misguided critique of affirmative action as the "whites only scholarship" represented could win any support at all from intelligent people (a CNN poll showed that over 65% of people thought it made a good point). I'm left thinking that we leftists have failed terribly in making our case properly to the American people.
    Last edited by *ClownPimp*; 03-02-2004 at 05:45 PM.
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    oh just shut up, no sane rich white land owner is going to read that.

  8. #23
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    The purpose of affirmative action was to speed up the process of bringing equal chances to minorities. It was supposed to be a temporary measure, but was found to be too good of a political tool. The result is that it has become a purposeless initiative that is used to win votes. It should not be used to "repay for trangressions against the ancestors of minorities" or what have you, but rather to bring equal opportunity. Once that goal has been achieved, it should be eliminated... Unfortunately, as I said it is too good a political tool.

    As for the whites only scholarship, I think that their attempt at a protest is rather stupid, but then again, stupidity is their prerogative.

  9. #24
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    In an ideal world, what one wants is equality both in procedure and in outcome -- we want people to be treated the same, and we want them to end up getting the same level of goods. But we're not in an ideal world, and the historical record seems clear that if we implement race-blind policies, we don't get race-neutral outcomes. Instead, we get harm done to minorities -- fewer blacks in the top universities, fewer blacks in important positions in companies, fewer blacks owning their own businesses, fewer blacks voting, fewer blacks living in better neighborhoods, and so on.
    Well duh...when well over half of America is white, of course there are going to be more white people at a university.

    I don't know the exact numbers for America as a whole, but I do know the numbers for Houston, TX, which are about 50% white, 25% hispanic, 12% black, 12% asian. Texas is particularly diverse, it would be much different in other states.

    So I will assume (don't take this number as a reality) that 66% of America as a whole is white, and the rest is hispanic, black, and asian. Of course there will be more white people at universities and businesses, etc., but that is simply because of the proportions of the population, not because of racism at all.

    (Anybody have the actual percentages on ethnic proportions in America as a whole?)
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    >>Well duh...when well over half of America is white, of course there are going to be more white people at a university.

    Oh dear.... I think you know good and well he meant in proportion.
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  11. #26
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    bleh, no matter if its good or not, its still racial in my opinion...

    everyones equal, why cant the world just see that -_-'
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  12. #27
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    >>It seems to me that the reduction of discrimination in outcome is of greater importance than the reduction of discrimination in procedure and attitude<<

    It seems to me that the reduction of all coercion is more important than reducing discrimination.

    If I own a business, it is my right as a business owner to hire whoever I please based on credentials I establish; if I'm a racist bigot who doesn't want a Mexican working for me, the Government shouldn't force me to hire and work with Mexicans in my business.

    If some people own/manage a private college, it is their right as a college to accept whoever they please based on their own credentials; if they run KKK University, the Government shouldn't coerce them into accepting a certain proportion of blacks or Jews (or anyone else for that matter).

    The only real place there is any room for the argument for affirmative action is in Government and Government-financed jobs. I personally believe the Government should hire its employees based on merit and leave race out of it.
    Last edited by Hillbillie; 03-03-2004 at 01:29 AM.

  13. #28
    Much older and wiser Fountain's Avatar
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    See, I would just blame the British.

    It is OUR fault people were slaves, and now OUR fault we do give too much precedence to ethnic minorities.

    In England we can say black, but not white, in a whole load of scenarios.

    I guess we are sick of it.

    So the original question stands, my original reply stands, and most people agreed until someone, someone implied there may be racial motives.

    Get real, how can it be racist when 'Ethnic minority' people are awarded the same stuff, which excludes white people?

    Its all bollocks.

    Somebody said STFU. We ALL should do.

    If we dont-many more law abiding, decent people in UK will vote for the BNP at next election. I cant stand their policies, but hey-lets dish out our hard earned tax money equally.....ie not favour ethnic minorities who have not paid a fraction of the taxes 'the whites' have.

    Western countries are too soft......
    Such is life.

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    >bleh, no matter if its good or not, its still racial in my opinion...

    Perhaps, but as was stated earlier, racism in procedure is much more desirable than racism in outcome. And at the present time no racism in procedure will not produce no racism in outcome

    >if I'm a racist bigot who doesn't want a Mexican working for me, the Government shouldn't force me to hire and work with Mexicans in my business.

    One of the purposes of government is to protect the rights of minorities. And one of those rights is to not be discriminated against when looking for employment. So the government has a duty to force business owners to not discriminate in their hiring practices.

    As the saying goes, "one persons personal freedoms end where another's begins" (or something like that)

    >If some people own/manage a private college, it is their right as a college to accept whoever they please based on their own credentials

    I do think private colleges do actually have that right
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  15. #30
    & the hat of GPL slaying Thantos's Avatar
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    >If some people own/manage a private college, it is their right as a college to accept whoever they please based on their own credentials

    I do think private colleges do actually have that right
    How many all white colleges do you know of? Yet there are all minority schools. So yes they can setup their own credentials but only to a degree.

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