Having problems converting people to C

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  1. #1
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    Having problems converting people to C

    How do you talk people into using C/C++ for development purposes? I've been at my new job for almost 5 weeks now. The second week, I was given Visual Basic and all the developer tools I needed to create applications that would be used here within the company. No big deal, I know VB and can use it quite effectively.

    But then I said the other day to my co-worker: "Is there a chance that I could get the rest of Visual Studio... namely MSVC? I can write this stuff in VB, but I'd like to do some of it in C too."

    His response: "Well, you have to remember that everyone else has to support it too, and if we go to something like that, I don't know if that's possible"

    So I got shot down. They don't know C/C++ and are afraid to learn/support it. Thus, I get no practice in it, yet I'm supposed to write a hardware driver and I'm going to be sent off to France for training on how to do that.

    How do I convince them that it'd be good to give me at least the compiler and let me play with it? I'm to the point where I might bring in my own copy of Visual Studio and install it.

  2. #2
    Visionary Philosopher Sayeh's Avatar
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    What you're trying to do/need to do, is make a business case for it. Your best arguments are going to be

    - diversification of code-base
    - increased performance, reliability
    - more powerful tools
    - more effecient code

    Even these however are hard to sell, because you are selling them to people who don't understand the difference. In truth, VB is for amateurs-- it's a beginner's engine, and no production grade code should _ever_ be written in it.

    B.A.S.I.C. = Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code. It's a good place to _start_-- you don't don't stay there.

    It's an interpreted language, not a stand-alone, compiled language. That's why Visual Basic requires a VB Kernel. Which is also it's biggest failure point during execution.

    ---

    If I were you, I'd invest in a compiler myself-- I recommend, if you have kids or know anybody who has a child in college, to get you an Academic copy of Metrowerks CodeWarrior C/C++. It will have C/C++, Java, and work on Macs and Windows machines.

    It is a truly professional level compiler with all the tools, libraries and source you need to write/debug _production grade_ applications. It will run you like $99. It's worth the investment. Then start recoding some things at work, modules mostly, that need performance improvements, and have VB link them in (it can). Compare performance difference.

    Build a case that they are losing money by not doing atleast some of the code in a compiled language.
    It is not the spoon that bends, it is you who bends around the spoon.

  3. #3
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    >>it's a beginner's engine, and no production grade code should _ever_ be written in it.

    I've disagreed with you on this point before, and I will again, but we won't get into that.

    And I have my own copy of Visual Studio and I use MSVC at home. I have no qualms about installing it here at work. The compiler is not the issue. If I could convince them to let me use it, they would buy me any developer tool I want.

    The problem is, no one here knows C or is willing to support it. And cost is not going to be a big seller here. None of the applications we write are time-sensative and hence do not make us money by being faster/tighter.

    This is a question of getting my co-workers to see the benefits and be able to support it along with me.

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    Code Goddess Prelude's Avatar
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    >This is a question of getting my co-workers to see the benefits and be able to support it along with me.
    Yes, but are there benefits to using C instead of VB? You say speed isn't a big issue, so one of the big selling points for C is lost. C is much harder to write working, correct programs with than VisualBasic. Unless you need the power and speed that C gives you, a programmer-efficient language like VB would be the better choice over a program-efficient language such as C or C++.

    Just because you like C doesn't mean it is the best tool for your company.
    My best code is written with the delete key.

  5. #5
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    Well, if you see my thread in the C board about drivers, I'm going to be writing that in C... and how are they going to support that if something happens to me? And I see other uses for C too. That's not the only one.

  6. #6
    CIS and business major
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    My suggestion, just bring in your own compiler, or just code in c/c++ when you're at home.

    A possible option...
    Ask your co-workers to code in C#. C# is practically identicle to java, but it uses the same built in functions as vb, and it also has a similar IDE. Your coworkers could pick up C# pretty quickly, and it would be more cost efficient (to learn) for your company (over c/c++). Just a possible option. I know that a lot of vb coders are upgrading to C# because it's (arguably) just as easy to pick up as it would be for a vb'er to move up to vb.net.

    Edited, because I didn't read your post correctly the first time.
    Last edited by Terrance; 11-19-2003 at 01:31 PM.

  7. #7
    'AlHamdulillah
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    and how are they going to support that if something happens to me?
    sssshhhhh..... why are you complaining, if something happens to you, you wont care, and in the meantime, its excellent leverage to get a promotion or two, as well as increases your job security if only you can program it

  8. #8
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    Originally posted by EvBladeRunnervE
    sssshhhhh..... why are you complaining, if something happens to you, you wont care, and in the meantime, its excellent leverage to get a promotion or two, as well as increases your job security if only you can program it
    You took the words right out of my mouth.

  9. #9
    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    Coding in business involves adopting house standards. If the house standard is VB, well, then you write with VB.

    In many non-time critical applications, VB is perfectly adequate. The time to market is generally short, and there are plenty of VB programmers around, so it's a low risk approach.

    Trying to introduce C/C++ into a VB shop is basically a pointless exercise. What you are doing is creating support problems where they weren't before. Sure, there will be some in your organisation that would like to do the same, but all of the current staff can use VB - why should management take such a gamble when it is plainly not needed?

    >>>
    In truth, VB is for amateurs-- it's a beginner's engine, and no production grade code should _ever_ be written in it.
    <<<

    I, to, would have to disagree with that statement. There are dozens of professional apps written with VB. If the app meets it's requirements, there is no reason to produce it in any more complicated/comprehensive/efficient/whatever way - it's working as it is.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

  10. #10
    5|-|1+|-|34|) ober's Avatar
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    Originally posted by EvBladeRunnervE
    sssshhhhh..... why are you complaining, if something happens to you, you wont care, and in the meantime, its excellent leverage to get a promotion or two, as well as increases your job security if only you can program it
    I'm not looking for job security. That is the question being posed to me. I'm trying to find an answer for it.

    Thanks for your comments Adrian and Prelude. I guess maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.

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