Bowling for Columbine

This is a discussion on Bowling for Columbine within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; plus, the basic facts remain the same, guns make it easier to kill people, and easier to kill lots of ...

  1. #46
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    plus, the basic facts remain the same, guns make it easier to kill people, and easier to kill lots of people. I'd like you to find a statistic that argues against that point.

  2. #47
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    Guns may be used for defensive purposes as many as 2 million to 3.6 million times a year

    This statistic is from the 1994 National Survey of Private Ownership of Firearms in the United States, conducted for the Police Foundation under the sponsorship of the National Institute of Justice and discussed in Phillip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig's "You Got Me: How Many Defensive Gun Uses Per Year?" Paper presented at the meeting of the American Society of Criminology, Chicago, November 20, 1996

    Again in 1994 there were approximately 1.3 million gun crimes. A few more than 22,000 people were murdered with firearms

    This statistic is from the National Crime Victimization Survey information, which counts as a gun crime any crime in which the criminal had a firearm, even if the firearm was not used by the criminal. Since criminal gun possession is included, the number should not be taken as a count of total crimes of actual gun misuse, so this statistic actually overestimates the number of gun crimes in the United States

  3. #48
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    This subject has gotten over my head and I don't understand allot of it but I'll try to give some input.

    >>plus, the basic facts remain the same, guns make it easier to kill people, and easier to kill lots of people. I'd like you to find a statistic that argues against that point.


    I think the main use for guns was intended for hunting and protection not murder. We had a discussion like this a while back where things eventually get taken advantage and used for things other than intended purpose.

    Ok and in respoce to Cheeze who I think said something back on page one (Yeah I'm a little far behind). The best way I can think of to rid areas of the bronx and all is to stiffen education. In Georgia did you know that you only have to be 16 to drop out of school? That allows many FRESHMAN to drop out. If we made people stay in through at least high school I think that would drop crime rate some and we would have better things going on in general. We should also enforce The Projects and all with more police officers. Its a dangerous area I know. So instead of sending a couple cars out why not send 50? Or more? If we enforced those areas like we should crime would drop. Things like that may not be possible or realistic but if we could do that our crime rate would drop.
    "When I die I want to pass peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

  4. #49
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    > Things like that may not be possible or realistic

    And that's the problem. It's a nice thought, it really is, but it's really unrealistic.

  5. #50
    C++ Developer XSquared's Avatar
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    >>In Georgia did you know that you only have to be 16 to drop out of school? That allows many FRESHMAN to drop out.
    Same here in Ontario.
    Naturally I didn't feel inspired enough to read all the links for you, since I already slaved away for long hours under a blistering sun pressing the search button after typing four whole words! - Quzah

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  6. #51
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    Oh and GC sorry for mispelling your name
    "When I die I want to pass peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

  7. #52
    Mayor of Awesometown Govtcheez's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ZakkWylde969
    Oh and GC sorry for mispelling your name
    We'll pretend you're the first

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    Sure thing GC
    "When I die I want to pass peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."

  9. #54
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    First off, that survey you are pulling your "stats" from is worthless. It asked a little over 3000 people this question, and from that they extrapolated to the millions in america. They even included the multiple times people bragged about using their gun, including a women who said she used it defensively 52 times in that year! Take away that 52 alone and the number drop considerably! Read this link: http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt Most notable in it was its section on defensive gun uses:

    Private citizens sometimes use
    their guns to scare off trespassers and fend off
    assaults. Such defensive gun uses (DGUs) are
    sometimes invoked as a measure of the public
    benefits of private gun ownership. On the basis of
    data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics'
    National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data,
    one would conclude that defensive uses are rare
    indeed, about 108,000 per year. But other surveys
    yield far higher estimates of the number of DGUs.
    Most notable has been a much publicized estimate of
    2.5 million DGUs, based on data from a 1994
    telephone survey conducted by Florida State
    University professors Gary Kleck and Mark
    Gertz.[13] The 2.5 million figure has been picked
    up by the press and now appears regularly in
    newspaper articles, letters to the editor,
    editorials, and even Congressional Research Service
    briefs for public policymakers.

    The NSPOF survey is quite similar to the Kleck and
    Gertz instrument and provides a basis for
    replicating their estimate. Each of the respondents
    in the NSPOF was asked the question, "Within the
    past 12 months, have you yourself used a gun, even
    if it was not fired, to protect yourself or someone
    else, or for the protection of property at home,
    work, or elsewhere?" Answers in the affirmative
    were followed with "How many different times did
    you use a gun, even if it was not fired, to protect
    yourself or property in the past 12 months?"
    Negative answers to the first DGU question were
    followed by "Have you ever used a gun to defend
    yourself or someone else?" (emphasis in original).
    Each respondent who answered yes to either of these
    DGU questions was asked a sequence of 30 additional
    questions concerning the most recent defensive gun
    use in which the respondent was involved, including
    the respondent's actions with the gun, the location
    and other circumstances of the incident, and the
    respondent's relationship to the perpetrator.

    Forty-five respondents reported a defensive gun use
    in 1994 against a person (exhibit 7). Given the
    sampling weights, these respondents constitute 1.6
    percent of the sample and represent 3.1 million
    adults. Almost half of these respondents reported
    multiple DGUs during 1994, which provides the basis
    for estimating the 1994 DGU incidence at 23
    million. This surprising figure is caused in part
    by a few respondents reporting large numbers of
    defensive gun uses during the year; for example,
    one woman reported 52!
    >>This is the stupidst thing I have ever heard, ok maybe not, but close. Just because the media doesn't report something doesn't mean it doesn't occur<<

    Did you not read what I said?? I even said that I know gun shootings take headline news over gun savings! But if they happen 5 times more, than SOMETHING will show up somewhere! Where is a link that shows these people's stories? If so many people are for guns, and it saves so many lives, then obviosly these people will be telling their stories all over the internet and the media. An NRA magazine might show a couple a month, but come on, we are talking about millions a year! Your whole evidence that it helps so many people is from a random poll that asked only 3000 people and that is completely flawed, so stop whipping out that 2 million plus BS as though its a fact. And your whole story about your friend proves a point, a person without a gun would have called animal control for a crocodile, with a gun suddenly shooting the poor confused thing in the head is the solution. Whoohoo, go guns! And even if your friend was saved by his gun from the burglar, guess what? Over 50 people died in America today because some idiots had guns that were easily available. The only way you know that guns saved even 10 peoples lives today is because a 10 year old survey is GUESSING that it MIGHT be true.

  10. #55
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    Guns are an easy way for people to cause huge amounts of harm to each other, it is staggeringly obvious that handing them out to the general public is a bad idea.

    Finnaly, I forget who it was but someone mentioned the National Nuke Association, well you know what, people should be allowed to have Nuclear weapons if they want. Nobody seems to realize why the second ammendment is in the constitution. The Founding Fathers included the Second Amendment to prevent the Government from becoming a state, an organization that has a monopoly of force. The Second Amendment is there so that if the Government fails to represent the people, the people can overthrow the government. The Second Amendment exists so that the people can keep the Government in check.
    People should be allowed to have nuclear weapons......

    people....
    should....
    be allowed....
    to have....
    nuclear weapons....

    ........

    Spoken like a true maniac.

  11. #56
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    Ok PJ simply because I don't want to debate the merits of a survey with you, I have work to do, lets assume the lowest value for the number of defensive gun uses in the source you provide. Lets assume that it is only 108,000. Even at that low amount that means that guns are used for defense almost 5 times more often then they are used to commit murder. 108,000 / 22,000 = 4.90909...

    So my friend should have called animal control at 3am and wait hours for them to arrive while a deadly animal ravages his house, not only does this indanger his life and the life of his family, put also pets and everything else in his house.

    Second, so we should take away guns from law abiding people, well then on that day an extra 2 people would have been killed. If you take away guns from law abiding people you simply put them at a disadvantage to criminals who will still have guns. Telling a rapist that he can't have a gun is like telling a terrorist that his car bomb is double parked.

    Clyde, the nuclear weapon statement was hyperbole. I don't actually think it would be good for people to have nuclear weapons, but I use it as an example to the point that people are supposed to have the power to keep the government in check. Like how the people of the English colonies did over 200 years ago

  12. #57
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    I wish I had a nuke

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    He slowly went downstairs and saw a guy with a knife, luckily my friend had grabed his shotgun before going downstairs, he got two shots off and the guy fled out the front door he had forced open.
    you shoot at a guy in your house with a gun?! wtf maybe im just a pacifist canadian but ok scare the guy, wave the gun about but shoot the guy? are you americans that hungry for spilled blood?

    If your friend had killed him i would have wanted to see him locked up for murder. Self defense bull $$$$ the guy didnt expect anyone home and had a knife and you have a shot gun!

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    I've held a TEC9 at a gun store (I wanted to look at it specifically because columbine happened, otherwise it would not have been very special), so are you sure they were ever illegal? (obviously this was after columbine happened).

  15. #60
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    but I use it as an example to the point that people are supposed to have the power to keep the government in check
    Except its a totally bogus argument because in a democratic country that is relatively stable (like the US) it seems virtually impossible that a government so extreme that they would attempt to remove democracy would come to power, furthermore if by some wild chance that did happen, having guns wouldn't matter whatsoever because the armed forces with tanks > civilians with guns.

    Even at that low amount that means that guns are used for defense almost 5 times more often then they are used to commit murder. 108,000 / 22,000 = 4.90909
    So?

    How many avoided muggings, or robberies do think justifies the death of an innocent?

    Plus you have no idea how many of those instances were actually dependent on the gun - In many instances the act of merely challenging an intruder causes them to flee the scene.

    Guns are just an easy way of KILLING PEOPLE, I just really don't understand how anybody in their right mind can think that they are a good idea.
    Last edited by Clyde; 09-05-2003 at 03:07 PM.

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