Killing someones grandparents

nickname_changed · 08-21-2003, 12:26 AM

During a rather boring english lesson, a friend of mine decided he wanted to kill me

. His plan was to go back in time, and kill my grandparents so that I would never exist. He's an idiot so I didn't pay much attention to what he said anyway.

But I got to thinking, would that be possible? If he killed my gradparents, I would never be born. So if I was never born, he would never have met me. If he never met me, he would have no reason to go back in time to kill my grandparents. If he never killed them, they they would exist again and so would I.

How does that sound? I guess its a lot like the grandfather theory, where you can't kill your own grandparents because you would not exist, and so would never come back to kill them. The only difference is its someone else doing the killing. With me not existing, he has no reason to go back in time, and so I would exist again.

Does what I said make sense? Would it then be impossible to go back in time (if we assume time travel IS possible) and kill someone? Then wouldn't it be impossible to kill hitler and not have world war II, because if he didn't exist you would have no reason to go back, and so then he would?

RoD · 08-21-2003, 12:50 AM

y do you guys always post $$$$ that makes me thing at 3am....i tell ya.....

Indian_fan · 08-21-2003, 12:54 AM

that reminded me of a movie I saw years ago ... Mr. Destiny. But the story line was quite different from this theme.

I'm not even sure if that is the correct name.

novacain · 08-21-2003, 02:06 AM

>>If he killed my gradparents, I would never be born. So if I was never born, he would never have met me. If he never met me, he would have no reason to go back in time to kill my grandparents. If he never killed them, they they would exist again and so would I.<<

So he would go back and kill them. Rinse, repeat.

ie endless loop causing an exception.

I think that time is relative to a person. To your friend he knows he has gone back. Think of his time line like a power cord running out behind him. It allows him to remember 'when' he has been.

I suggest reading the novel 'The Anubis Gates' by Tim Powers

or the movie Donnie Darko

nickname_changed · 08-21-2003, 02:19 AM

Quote:

So he would go back and kill them. Rinse, repeat.

But the same thing will happen, I'll just keep coming back. Even if he knows he has gone back, his past self wont know me because I never existed, and so while his real self can keep going back and killing me, I'll still exist because his past self wont.

adrianxw · 08-21-2003, 02:57 AM

I suggest reading "The Proteus Operation" by James P Hogan. Multiple futures linked by time conduits to multiple past's all with multiple causality loops and temporal paradoxes.

What you describe originally is known as the grandfather paradox, the general feeling being that if time travel were possible, (probably not), you could return to the past and kill your grandfather, but the future you came from would no longer exist, therefore return would be impossible.

There is a theory that every event which has two or more possible outcomes spawns new timelines in which all of the possible states occur. Extended to the quantum level, it basically means that a any possible collapse of a wave function will be instantiated.

Fountain · 08-21-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Does what I said make sense? Would it then be impossible to go back in time (if we assume time travel IS possible) and kill someone? Then wouldn't it be impossible to kill hitler and not have world war II, because if he didn't exist you would have no reason to go back, and so then he would?

NO! Because if we could travel time, I would go through time killing all people that have a moustache like Hitlers. Even if he was a good boy, or a crazy fool I would still have had him.

nickname_changed · 08-21-2003, 04:54 PM

Ok, so lets say you kill everyone in the world with mostaches. Then, your past self grows up in peace and harmoney, never knowing who/what Hitler was. So, when he gets to your age, he never goes back in time to kill everyone with mostaches, and thus hitler will have existed again. Get my point?

Fountain · 08-21-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stovellp
Ok, so lets say you kill everyone in the world with mostaches. Then, your past self grows up in peace and harmoney, never knowing who/what Hitler was. So, when he gets to your age, he never goes back in time to kill everyone with mostaches, and thus hitler will have existed again. Get my point?

If I go back in time, it is ME time travelling. Thus I kill all people with HITLERS 'tache (not all 'taches are as bad you know!)

Then I find me and leave me a note in my coat pocket stating certain 'taches are very bad. I must also say on my note-to me-to find these 'taches and eliminate them.

That should do it.

nickname_changed · 08-21-2003, 05:29 PM

I guess you you left a note it would work, or you could even go back and tell your past self he has to go back and kill everyone with hitler mostaches. But without that, it wouldn't work, so I was right with the argument agains't my friend wasn't I?

ZakkWylde969 · 08-21-2003, 06:59 PM

This is over my head but wouldn't killing your grandfather just affect the futures hims life NOT yours. Therefor at that time there would be 2 of him not one. So it would happen. I was watching somethng on time travel and how people would only be able to go into the future. Its something like hitting maximun velocity in space then when you finally arrive back at earth you are in the future because at maxium velocity molecular levels stop.

(Fix me if I'm wrong but It's something like that)

**Thantos** · 08-21-2003, 07:33 PM

It all depends if there is more the one universe of existance. What was that show...Quantium Leep I think.. had a good way of expressing it.

Basically if you go back in time and do something to change history when you go back to your time you don't return to your existance but a new one.

Sang-drax · 08-22-2003, 01:41 PM

Time travelling isn't possible. There are no reports of future humans visiting our time.

**Thantos** · 08-22-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Time travelling isn't possible. There are no reports of future humans visiting our time.

Back in the day humans thought that the earth was flat. There no reports at that time to disprove that "fact." Does it make it true? Just because we don't know something to be true (or false) doesn't make it that way.

Sang-drax · 08-22-2003, 02:09 PM

But why haven't we encountered visitors from the future?

08-21-2003, 12:26 AM	#1
nickname_changed Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 986	Killing someones grandparents During a rather boring english lesson, a friend of mine decided he wanted to kill me . His plan was to go back in time, and kill my grandparents so that I would never exist. He's an idiot so I didn't pay much attention to what he said anyway. But I got to thinking, would that be possible? If he killed my gradparents, I would never be born. So if I was never born, he would never have met me. If he never met me, he would have no reason to go back in time to kill my grandparents. If he never killed them, they they would exist again and so would I. How does that sound? I guess its a lot like the grandfather theory, where you can't kill your own grandparents because you would not exist, and so would never come back to kill them. The only difference is its someone else doing the killing. With me not existing, he has no reason to go back in time, and so I would exist again. Does what I said make sense? Would it then be impossible to go back in time (if we assume time travel IS possible) and kill someone? Then wouldn't it be impossible to kill hitler and not have world war II, because if he didn't exist you would have no reason to go back, and so then he would?
nickname_changed is offline

08-21-2003, 12:50 AM	#2
RoD Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 6,334	y do you guys always post $$$$ that makes me thing at 3am....i tell ya.....
RoD is offline

08-21-2003, 12:54 AM	#3
Indian_fan Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 41	that reminded me of a movie I saw years ago ... Mr. Destiny. But the story line was quite different from this theme. I'm not even sure if that is the correct name.
Indian_fan is offline

08-21-2003, 02:06 AM	#4
novacain train spotter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: near a computer Posts: 3,359	>>If he killed my gradparents, I would never be born. So if I was never born, he would never have met me. If he never met me, he would have no reason to go back in time to kill my grandparents. If he never killed them, they they would exist again and so would I.<< So he would go back and kill them. Rinse, repeat. ie endless loop causing an exception. I think that time is relative to a person. To your friend he knows he has gone back. Think of his time line like a power cord running out behind him. It allows him to remember 'when' he has been. I suggest reading the novel 'The Anubis Gates' by Tim Powers or the movie Donnie Darko __________________ "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter." Friedrich Nietzsche "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered." George Best "If you are going through hell....keep going." Winston Churchill Last edited by novacain; 08-21-2003 at 02:09 AM.
novacain is offline

08-21-2003, 02:57 AM	#6
adrianxw It's full of stars Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 4,833	I suggest reading "The Proteus Operation" by James P Hogan. Multiple futures linked by time conduits to multiple past's all with multiple causality loops and temporal paradoxes. What you describe originally is known as the grandfather paradox, the general feeling being that if time travel were possible, (probably not), you could return to the past and kill your grandfather, but the future you came from would no longer exist, therefore return would be impossible. There is a theory that every event which has two or more possible outcomes spawns new timelines in which all of the possible states occur. Extended to the quantum level, it basically means that a any possible collapse of a wave function will be instantiated. __________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.
adrianxw is offline

08-21-2003, 04:54 PM	#8
nickname_changed Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 986	Ok, so lets say you kill everyone in the world with mostaches. Then, your past self grows up in peace and harmoney, never knowing who/what Hitler was. So, when he gets to your age, he never goes back in time to kill everyone with mostaches, and thus hitler will have existed again. Get my point?
nickname_changed is offline

08-21-2003, 05:29 PM	#10
nickname_changed Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 986	I guess you you left a note it would work, or you could even go back and tell your past self he has to go back and kill everyone with hitler mostaches. But without that, it wouldn't work, so I was right with the argument agains't my friend wasn't I?
nickname_changed is offline

08-21-2003, 06:59 PM	#11
ZakkWylde969 ___ Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 806	This is over my head but wouldn't killing your grandfather just affect the futures hims life NOT yours. Therefor at that time there would be 2 of him not one. So it would happen. I was watching somethng on time travel and how people would only be able to go into the future. Its something like hitting maximun velocity in space then when you finally arrive back at earth you are in the future because at maxium velocity molecular levels stop. (Fix me if I'm wrong but It's something like that) __________________ "When I die I want to pass peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did, not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car."
ZakkWylde969 is offline

08-21-2003, 07:33 PM	#12
Thantos & the hat of GPL slaying Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,730	It all depends if there is more the one universe of existance. What was that show...Quantium Leep I think.. had a good way of expressing it. Basically if you go back in time and do something to change history when you go back to your time you don't return to your existance but a new one.
Thantos is offline

08-22-2003, 01:41 PM	#13
Sang-drax and the hat of marbles Join Date: May 2002 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 2,038	Time travelling isn't possible. There are no reports of future humans visiting our time. __________________ Last edited by Sang-drax : Tomorrow at 02:21 AM. Reason: Time travelling
Sang-drax is offline

08-22-2003, 02:09 PM	#15
Sang-drax and the hat of marbles Join Date: May 2002 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 2,038	But why haven't we encountered visitors from the future? __________________ Last edited by Sang-drax : Tomorrow at 02:21 AM. Reason: Time travelling
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