Yes it is, and its one of the many reasons the bible cannot be literally true.
About if the Orthodiox Christian theologists say that the age of universe is 6000.
That's just rediculus
We aren't indestructable Aprog, if God made us perfect to start with why did he make us crap on Earth?
Here is the question, what everyone think that "is hidden" behind the word perfectness". With the perfetness i mean: The really great analogies and balance that charactirieze our body, the extreme armony of all our functions ( functions of life ) and the way all these things co operate to keep us alive, the fact that we were imperishable/indestructible, we were not valnurable to death, the fact that we have logic and the power to think and always be able to choose the right from the wrong. About the last one, i 'll expand with next paragraphs/topic:
Why do we get old Aprog? Why do we age? If we were built perfectly surely once we hit 25 we would just stay like that, why does our body and our mind deteriorate? Perfection? Don't make me laugh.
I can very easily imagine a humanity that is better - better physically, better mentally, better socially, therefore humanity clearly cannot be perfect, and correspondingly that God could have done a better job.
God could have made us able to choose, but make us so that our nature was such that we simply didn't do "evil" things. We can still have choice, its just something we don't choose to do.
If He did what you suggested, we would not have free will.
You will fail.
I 'll try to make this a little more understandable.
I think that it would be good to invistigate the following, to come to the answer: Why did God create the "tree of knowledge, good and evil" in the garden of Edem? If he had not created this, Adam and Even would have not sin and all the ensuing things would have not happen.
......what on Earth are you talking about?
He created the tree for the exact reason of free will. If God had not created this, humans would have been to the garden of Edem, either they wanted it either the did not want this. So, to make Adam and Eve free to choose whatever they wanted, he had created that tree.
You are suggesting that we willfully left paradise? Then God made us stupid.
If we did not want to stay there, we could eat from the tree and leave.
What that he made us so stupid that we chose, Earth with all its suffering, pain and death, over paradise? Oh yea he sounds perfect.
So, God made us to be the master of our selves and of our acts. That shows us how perfetc the God is.
So you maintain that mankind CHOSE to leave paradise, and come to Earth, and die?
He was not selfish to keep us there if we want to leave. But he gave us the chance to do whatever we want.
Yea cause that makes perfect sense.
Yes yes yes, we have free will (except we clearly can't) but it doesn't solve the problem of evil does it? Because if God were perfect, human beings would never choose to do bad things.
Here's an example: We have 2 different men who owns 2 dogs, one each one. The first man keeps his dig on the leash. The second man, does not hold his dog from the leash and he has him free to go wherever he wants.
The first dog is not free to go wherever he wants. He does not have free will. Either if he wants to stay with his master, either if he doesn't, he is obliged to stay with him. However, the second dog, is free to go wherever he wants, he has free will, and if he doesn't want to stay with his master, he is free to leave.
I think that example makes things very clear. The same thing appeals with God, the tree and us humans. So, these is one of the best - or even the best - signs of free will our God gave us.
The fact that you believe we have free will and you presumeably believe that there are certain choices where everyone will make the same choice, means that God could have made us with free will but with a nature that meant we never chose to do evil.
Think of your dog analogy, one dog has no free will, kept on the leash, two other dogs are let free, one of them is a bad, he chases cats he craps everywhere, he barks at children, etc. etc.
The other dog is a good dog, he is perfectly behaved, they BOTH have free will. Why didn't God make man good dogs?
Point me to the paragraph in the bible the says angels have free will.
So, to topic of Satan now, God did not created all those angels and humans according to what choises they will follow later in their life. He created everybody to be the master of our acts, and let us alone ( well.. not exactly.. he is next to us in our entire lifetime ) to choose whatever we want.
That makes him stupid. He could have chosen to look into the future and see whether his creations would turn out bad like Satan either he was too stupid to do that which means can't be omniscient, or he couldn't do that which means he isn't omnipotent, or he didn't want to that, which means he isn't omnibenevolent. You pick.
Assume that God gets A material and B material to make the spirits( the same appeals for humans ). To make all the spirits, the only thing he watches is to mix these too mateials so that he can make the spirit. Not what the spirit after its creation will choose to do.
If you offered people the choice between a million dollars and a kick in nuts which would they choose? The million dollars. Do they have free will? -according to you yes. Therefore it is possible for people to have free will and yet still favour a particular choice in a particular instance, just as God has made it in our nature to choose million dollars over kicks in the nuts he could have made it in our nature to choose good over evil, why didn't he?
You have asked we He did not created us to choose only the good between the good and the bad ( since we were perfect ). This is a bit relevant to the above things. Well, why should everybody choose to do the good thing? If everybody was created to do only the good, as a robod programmed to follow blindly the orders of his creator, we would not have free will.
Is right to punish someone at all, in anyway whatsoever, for something they have no control over, like the actions of another person?
It's not the evil panishmant you are talking about.
For God sake, that's a stupid thing to say, only someone who had never felt real pain (and was particularly dense) could make such a statement.
When you have faith to God, you 'll see that the pain is not that difficult to be overcome.
The bible says that God punishes the children and the grandchildren and the great grandchildren of sinners, read the ten commandements.
Now, about the acts of our ancectors. If you consider that you can also "go to Paradise", that God is by your side every second, that you can even reach a level which is only "few steps away from the level of God" etc, you'll see that you "are not the man who is being punished for the acts of others".
You didn't answer my question, is it ok to make my children crawl through glass to see if they will continue to love me afterwards?
The difficulty is to resist in all the tempteation, which means do the right. However, you can have the help of God, and achieve it. If you want to stay with God, you have to follow some rules, the rules of ethic. If you don't want to do ethical things you can leave. I know it's difficult to do the ethic things, but you have help. That's all. If God did not give these rules.. now the society would have done what it does, and say that this is what God wants. But now it doesn't say this( ? ). If you did not follow these rules, your freedom would have taken some part of my freedom. However, now your freedom stops at the point where my freddom starts.
So, all these rules are for our good and to make this world a good place to live.
Since you are closer to God, you would have not feel that your life is crap ( which really is not ). God, "sees" a man without a house and a man with 3 houses with the same eye.
Compare a religious person who's disease ridden and in agony with a religous person whos healthy. Who is happier Aprog?
If God puts misery on the Earth to bring people closer to him, he's a bastard, because he could make people closer to him by just clicking his metaphorical fingers.
Then why do you believe that the guy who surviived was saved by God and wasn't just lucky?
of course i believe in good and bad luck
Right because obviously YOUR version is the right one..... :rolleyes:
Well, you are talking to an Orthodox. So, go read the Orthodox and not the Romecatholic version. ( if you can find this out
Right so theres lots of room for interpretation like i said before and you disagreed, you now agree?
Another huge topic: Bible is not true word by word. For example, At the biginning, it writes that "God said, let there be light". However, he did not say anything, because, simply, there was nothing to hear him. So, it would be more rigth to wright "God wanted to be created the light".
So, as you see, all the things that the bible says are written in a simplier form, so that it can be understood by the humans. So, according to this, all the stuff that is written is the Bible is both wrong and right. Right for the meaning, point, truth etc. and wrong for the way it is presented. But this is just to be understood better from all the men.
When you say that human came from a living microorganicm with probably one cail, you don't say where did this microorganism came from.
I can make DNA in the lab, out of decidely unalive chemicals.
And even if came from anothere microorganism, that microorganism does need a cause, because only DNA is known to produse DNA,
Science doesn't need to "prove" anything, it need only point out that there is an easy solution that has evidence supporting it, that does need the addition of "magic" to explain it.
science has never proved that something alive can be created from somethin non alive, s
Evolution has nothing to do with where the first organism came from, if you wanted to you could say God made the first micro organism, it would be sticking in "magic" when you dont need to put any in, but atleast it wouldnt be denying evolution which is just ignorant. (of course you would have to accept that the story of creation is not true, but hey you don't think the bible is literally true anyway, so no problem right?)
o the whole argumant collapse. ( if you still disagree, because you might say that human came from something else, if you can say what this is , say it; however i think that after what i have said, you won't find anything. i 'll wait to hear you )
Those answers are COMPLETELY contradictory, if species were created separately clearly they didnt have evolve from a common ancestor did they!?
You think the morality in the bible is the "best", even when it says you can beat your slaves? When it says you should punish people children for their parents mistakes?
Eeeer.... i was going to ask you exactly the same thing
Maybe we have a different idea of what the basis for social ethics should be.
1) Clyde, i have said too much. Don't make a comment about each line. Just about the points, to make this easier for both of us.
I sure as hell hope not.
2)nvoigt could you tell me how do you find all the things i 've said? Do you agree?