Languages dying

This is a discussion on Languages dying within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; When I said that it’s different in the case of Latin, I meant that English developed from Latin, and it’s ...

  1. #31
    Just a Member ammar's Avatar
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    When I said that it’s different in the case of Latin, I meant that English developed from Latin, and it’s not the same as when you have to adopt a new language that was not developed by you, like having to adopt, say, Japanese just because it’s a more common language… People let Latin die, because they developed the language and they are using the developed for of it, and the same applies for ancient Greek.

    What I want to it say is that people have native languages, and they should preserve it, and that doesn’t mean that they should not communicate with other cultures, and maybe “merge” after a certain period of time, but the right way to do that is by “communication” between cultures, where each culture should have it’s own identity so that each culture could see that identity very clearly, and take the good things from it, but if you wanted people to follow a certain life style or adopt a new language, they will loose their identity, and you will not be able to learn form them, simply because their identity is no more existing.

    So I’m not saying that people should stay as they are because it’s what they are now, and I’m not against the change in cultures, but I want it to be done right.

    I should value ALL histories equally. Or atleast I think a world where people valued ALL histories equally, a world where people weren't divided up into their little meaingless groupings would be a better world.
    Yes, you should value all histories equally, but you should also learn about your history more than you have to learn about other histories… Is there any country that you know about it's history more than you know about England?

    I know, you seemed to be saying that inorder to change cultural values you needed to understand them, evidently not.
    I meant the “right” way to change them, it’s what I’ve already said.

    IMO one inevitably leads to the other.
    ( communication and merging )

    But they have to communicate first, and communicate right, and I said that previously.

    It will no doubt take a long time, my point is merely that it is a good thing so we shouldn't fight it.
    We shouldn’t fight it, and we shouldn’t “force” it, it should come naturally, otherwise it won’t be right, and it’s will cause problems after a while.

    But i do like it, or atleast it feels nice, but what feels nice, is not neccessarily the best thing for humanity, since i think humanity would be better off without artificial groupings i therefore support cultural merging despite the fact that i do like being English and would feel a certain sense of loss in the demise of that "identity".
    If you did not “loose” you identity, but “developed” your values, you will not feel a sense of “loss”.

    They choose to stay within the confines of Western culture because they prefer Western culture, and why do they prefer Western culture? Because the criteria they judge cultures on (food, language, customs/religions, laws, etc.) are formed due to the cultural enviornment they grew up in!
    That exactly what I’m saying…
    Maybe I didn’t get you right, but that is exactly what I’m saying. People in the west prefer the Western culture( usually ), and they will probably won’t prefer the African, or the Asian on.

    But it doesn't happen unless our values are almost identical, if you believe strongly in murderering babies and i believe strongly in not murderering babies we hit problems. Only when the differences in values are superficial do people live in harmony.
    Come on!
    Who believes in murdering babies?! I think that it’s a bad example…

    I want to ask you this:
    How can you learn from me, and I learn form you, if each of us doesn’t have his own identity?

    Yes, thats what i want, you take the best things from my culture i take the best things from your culture. Our cultures merge each one gaining from the strengths of the other to form a new improved culture that includes both populations.
    I’ll ask you the same question as above.

    My debate with you is merely with your reasons which seem to be motivated by a wish to preserve individual cultural identities.
    Again I say that preserving them doesn’t mean not to try and learn from others, but if others are going learn from you, you should have an identity.
    none...

  2. #32
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    When I said that it’s different in the case of Latin, I meant that English developed from Latin, and it’s not the same as when you have to adopt a new language that was not developed by you, like having to adopt, say, Japanese just because it’s a more common language… People let Latin die, because they developed the language and they are using the developed for of it, and the same applies for ancient Greek
    I'm not disputing that, I am disputing the idea that we need to keep languages alive for historical value, we don't.

    What I want to it say is that people have native languages, and they should preserve it
    Why should they preserve it?

    and that doesn’t mean that they should not communicate with other cultures, and maybe “merge” after a certain period of time, but the right way to do that is by “communication” between cultures
    I agree.

    where each culture should have it’s own identity so that each culture could see that identity very clearly, and take the good things from it, but if you wanted people to follow a certain life style or adopt a new language, they will loose their identity, and you will not be able to learn form them, simply because their identity is no more existing
    Cultures having their own "identities" means that groups of people are defining themselves by their differences, i don't think thats a good thing. Why do you think cultural "identities" are a good idea?

    Instead of saying I'm English and your French, wouldn't it be better to say we're European? And instead saying I'm European and your American, wouldn't be better to say, we're human?

    I am not advocating forcing anyone to do anything, I am merely suggesting that its a good idea not to go out our way to protect cultural identity.

    We should make sure these languages don't die, otherwise cultural identity X will disappear. GOOD, that doesn't mean everything from that culture will vanish merely that the IDENTITY will go and even then it wont just disappear one day it will gradually become less and less significant in favour of a new larger vaguer cultural identity. The aspects from the culture that are positive (music, food, clothing, attitudes etc.) will not be lost they will be incorporated into the newer larger grouping

    So I’m not saying that people should stay as they are because it’s what they are now, and I’m not against the change in cultures, but I want it to be done right.
    Ok, i agree with that, i don't think British imperialism was a good idea, I just don't think we should protect group identity for the sake of protecting group identity.

    Yes, you should value all histories equally,
    Agreed.

    but you should also learn about your history more than you have to learn about other histories… Is there any country that you know about it's history more than you know about England?
    No you shouldn't and this contradicts your former statement; you can't learn about all histories equally if you learn more about one than another. I do know more about English history than the history of another country but i don't think that’s a good thing. I would prefer a world where people did not show bias towards one particular group of humans over another, historical education is merely another facet of the same idea.

    We shouldn’t fight it, and we shouldn’t “force” it, it should come naturally, otherwise it won’t be right, and it’s will cause problems after a while.
    Right, but it does come naturally, then people fight it! People fight to save ‘their’ identity, they place laws to guard ‘their’ language, the older generations try to force the newer ones to follow old customs, "why must i do it like this mummy?" "Because thats how ‘we’ do it". Yuck yuck yuck yuck.

    If you did not “loose” you identity, but “developed” your values, you will not feel a sense of “loss”.
    Agreed, which is why its a gradual process, whether your identity is "lost" in favour of a new one or whether it merely changes to include a new one is semantics the point is that people become less fragmented and groupings get larger. I think its a process that should be encouraged rather than discouraged.

    Maybe I didn’t get you right, but that is exactly what I’m saying. People in the west prefer the Western culture( usually ), and they will probably won’t prefer the African, or the Asian on.
    Right but that doesn't present an issue with what i'm saying; if there were not individual cultures but merely a single master culture incorporating all the positive aspects of the cultures round the world, no one would want to be part of anything else. There would always be local diversity of course, but it wouldn't be given the significance it is today.

    Come on!
    Who believes in murdering babies?! I think that it’s a bad example…
    It was of course an extreme example but it illustrates a point; the more similar two cultures are the more friendly they become, the more different, the more hostile.

    I want to ask you this:
    How can you learn from me, and I learn form you, if each of us doesn’t have his own identity?
    I could learn from you in exactly the same way i learn from anyone else, if someone happens to practice karate they can show it to me, if i happen to play an instrument i can show it to them. But i'm not defined by a "music playing group identity" and he's not defined by a "karate practicing group identity". Or atleast not to the same extent, people always form groups and group identities always exist BUT with cultures we enshrine these identities we make them so much more than they need to be.

    You could show me the food you eat, or clothes you wear or music you listen to and vice versa without either of us being defined by those things anymore so than we are defined by our other choices. Then instead of people being born into a particular style of clothing, music, food, attitudes, people could actually pick and choose, just like they do with activities that are less defined by "group identities". Wouldn't that be better?

    Wouldn't it be better if instead of being born into culture X and automatically being handed a huge aspect of who you are expected to be, you could actually choose which bits you like from all of the cultures all over the world? Its already happening, we eat other cultures' foods more and more, we are beginning to listen to to other cultures music, fashion is now regularly using other cultures styles as the basis for new ideas, international law is gaining more importance...... cultural blending.
    Last edited by Clyde; 07-29-2003 at 12:00 PM.

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