Chemtrails?

I was reading some websites, and I read something about Chemtrails. Chemtrails are supposively these clouds of gas that the U.S. government sprays out of planes that releases toxic gases into the air. These gases are supposed to make our immune systems weaker, so that the government can control our population. Some think the government can even change weather by these things.

I know the government does a lot of secret stuff that are cruel and immoral, but going to these measures? I don't believe it. But I don't know what could these planes be spraying? I saw some pictures, and it looks really fishy. These aren't crop dusters or anything of the sort, because they've actually sprayed above major cities like New York. Some are even government planes (I saw some pictures of USAF and Navy aircraft).

What do you think of this? What do you think these planes are actually spraying, and why?

this couldn't be more stupid.

periodically in many areas there is a mosquito control need. This happened in my area and we were notified a few days in advance. This is likely what you're referring to.

I hope you weren't referring to me as being stupid, because if you paid attention to my post I said I didn't believe it.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FillYourBrain
this couldn't be more stupid.

---

This person? This poster? OOOOhhhh This TOPIC!!!

Or, the pic could have been editted.

Quote:

---

I know the government does a lot of secret stuff that are cruel and immoral

---

name one.

But then think about it... what have the government got to gain from killing off their own people?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Panopticon
But then think about it... what have the government got to gain from killing off their own people?

---

kill off all the weak...leaving the nation with strong population to become soldiers if a future war was supposed to happen :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mart_man00
name one.

---

I can do that. (warning, this post contains information that may deeply bother people with any regard for humanity)

New York Times, 8/31/1997

Quote:

---

Atomic Guinea Pigs
For decades, those who claimed to be victims of clandestine radiation experiments conducted by the United States Government were dismissed as paranoid. At the Department of Energy, which oversees America's nuclear-weapons research, these people were referred to collectively as "the Crazies." But the opening of cold-war archives has brought the Crazies in from the fringe.

As documents declassified since 1994 show, dozens of Government-sanctioned radiation experiments were conducted between 1944 and 1974 on unwitting or ill-informed military personnel, patients, children, pregnant women and prisoners, serveral of who appear on the following pages. To avoid scandal and legal liability, the Atomic Energy Commision declared certain experiments top secret.

Such cold-war secrecy explains why it took until last month to reveal that A-bomb tests from 1951 to 1962 exposed millions more children to fallout - and an increased risk of thyroid cancer - than the Government had once reported.

...

Hazardous Oatmeal. In the 1950's, Frederick Boyce was one of about 24 boys at the Fernald School in suburban Boston who were fed radioactive oatmeal as part of a nutrition study. The experiment, financed by the A.E.C. and the National Institutes of Health, was designed to show how the body absorbs various minerals. Wards of the state, the Fernald boys were enticed to participate by the prospect of joining a "Science Club."

---

That's a six page article, and I don't even have all of it, and I'm not prepared to type what I do have. I would love to post a link to it here, but I couldn't find a copy of the text available online - if anyone else can, please post a link. Anyway, it goes on to detail various nuclear tests on people who were not informed or deliberately lied to. One inmate was told "it would be like having a few chest X-rays, and if we cooperated, we might have our sentences reduced." He got 20,000 X-rays to the testicles and a vasectomy - in violation of the Nuremberg Code. Soldiers were sent on to ships near the Bikini Atoll (another fiine example of government deception - those people were told they would be able to go back) after nukes had been exploded nearby as "part of an experiment to find out, in the words of one doocument, "how much radiation can a man take?" "

So, there it is. I'm sure, positive in fact, that there are other examples; however, there may not be any which are as scary.

Sorry about any typos in the last message, I typed the article while looking at a printed copy, and not the screen.

Here's the abstract and first paragraph as given at the NY Times website, although the full thing isn't available.

Quote:

---

Magazine Desk | August 31, 1997, Sunday
Atomic Guinea Pigs

By Michael D'Antonio (NYT) 1478 words
Late Edition - Final , Section 6 , Page 38 , Column 1
ABSTRACT - Michael D'Antonio article on dozens of Government-sanctioned radiation experiments that were conducted between 1944 and 1974 on unwitting or ill-informed military personnel, patients, children, pregnant women and prisoners; Atomic Energy Commission, to avoid scandal and legal liability, declared certain experiments top secret; cold-war secrecy explains why it took until last month to reveal that A-bomb tests from 1951 to 1962 exposed millions of children to fallout--and increased risk of thyroid cancer--than Govt had once reported; these studies, designed to determine effects of radiation on human beings, were in many cases conducted not just in name of science but also in preparation for nuclear war; in 1993, Energy Sec Hazel O'Leary broke with her predecessorss arranging to declassify all related documents and urging compensation; profiles of some victims of tests; photos (L) For decades, those who claimed to be victims of clandestine radia-tion experiments conducted by the United States Gov-ernment were dismissed as paranoid. At the Department of Energy, which oversees America's nuclear-weapons research, these people were referred to collectively as ''the Crazies.'' But the opening of cold-war archives has brought the Crazies in from the fringe.

As documents declassified since 1994 show, dozens of Government-sanctioned radiation experiments were conducted between 1944 and 1974 on unwitting or ill-informed military personnel, patients, children, pregnant women and prisoners, several of whom appear on the following pages. To avoid scandal and legal liability, the Atomic Energy Commision declared certain experiments top secret.

---

hmm...children, you cant have anything anti-us with out a couple dozen of them, there was probally alot of minorities in there to.

that "news" sound like news from that one guy(i forgot what exactly he is, besides a discrace). they guy that said bush secretly want to break from the geneva convention and basicly take over the world.

you could argue about some atomic testing(at least you did find something, i have to give you that. alot better than most) was "cruel and immoral".

if it was prisoners(and not people with 1 to many speeding tickets), i really dont care either way. regular people or the military is another matter.

im sure some private homes were hit with some amount of radiation. i read that some of the people did cross the line in the sand so they gave them self radiation poising, but im sure some where minding their own bussiness(maybe even most, we will never know).

either way the goal of it wasnt to kill our own people. take tear gas(or its knock-offs), its used in basic training. medical testing is even done on humans, after it has been proven safe. for awhile we knew crap. the real question is weather we knew what we were doing.

while we have made our mistakes in the past, atleast they were in the past. atleast there not normal and atleast it was always better than the rest.

the last one was a flame, but it was crap to begin with, i wonder what will come of this.......

Yeah, we've made our mistakes in the past. We've run tests on unknowing, unwilling people in order to determine the effects of radiation on them. I'm sure if offered an incentive, they could have found plenty of volunteers.

As stated in the abstract, the author of the article was Michael D'Antonio.

However, think about the other times the government has violated the rights of US citizens. One that comes to mind is the Japanese Internment camps. Another, I suppose, would be the McCarthy trials. I'm positive that there are tons of others, but I'm not good enough with my American history to name them at the moment...maybe with some thought. I could throw out European history stuff like crazy, but that's not relevant...maybe someone could help me out with some American things.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is - now we know what they were doing in the 1950s. They were testing nukes on people, because they could. It took 40 or 50 years for this stuff to be disclassified - and the really secret stuff is probably still that way. If they were doing this stuff then, what might they be doing now? I'm sure the government hasn't become completely transparent and upfront with its citizens since these tests... what reason do we have to believe that they aren't doing things to us? Not to sound like an environmentalist, but what if there are more than just growth hormones in the cows? Or what if the growth hormones are a test? Or any of nearly infinite things that we eat or do each day, that wasn't happening 20 years ago?

Quote:

---

One that comes to mind is the Japanese Internment camps.

---

this i would like to hear, what did we do to them? what would you of prefered? i havnt really heard alot about it. it does sound a little overboard, but it was like they were beaten daily, just moved. since its america, im sure they were paid after too(that doesnt make it all right all they time but i doubt it was that bad).

mccarthyism was a witch hunt but atleast people were doing something, i wish we did that with clinton instead of bush.

what are you really expecting to find out? we have et? we were helping hitler the whole time? most of the stuff is just crap.

its good that people question things, but its been getting out of hand for years.

With the Japanese Internment Camps, all or most people of Japanese ancestry in this country were sent to camps with other Japanese. It wasn't just recent immigrants, or even first generation Japanese who had only been in the country for one generation, but second, and possibly third (not sure) generation Japanese were sent to the camps as well. It started right after Pearl Harbor. There was extreme discrimination against Japanese people by the general population, which in part, was due to Pearl Harbor, but it went overboard. Japanese homes had windows broken and were spraypainted with racial slurs in many regions, Japanese businesses destroyed, etc. I guess you could call it America's Krystalnacht. Anyway, the government sent all these people to camps. I suppose the camps weren't hell-holes like Auschwitz, but they definitely weren't nice either - quite sub-par. They were forced to abandon their homes, their property, their jobs, their businesses, their lives. This was done to thousands of people - not just a few prime suspects. The people were not given a trial or their rights, even when their families had been legal citizens of the country for years. After several years (5?) they were finally allowed to leave, since the war was over... but they went back to their houses, and found them vandalized or destroyed, or occupied by others. No measures had been taken to protect their posessions, and there were still strong anti-Japanese sentiments throughout the country similar to the anti-semitism that plagued Germany before the war. Those that were lucky enough to still own things were discriminated against like mad... Anyway, you were somewhat correct about them being paid, but not entirely. I'm not sure that the people who went through the experience ever actually got anything, but within the last 10 years, the government has paid out lump sum payments (a few hundred thousand, I think) to descendants of interred Japanese... which, to me, doesn't make sense, because the people getting the money weren't the ones wronged, and if they were the ones who were wronged, what they were paid was insignificant compared to what they would have lost - several years and everything they owned. However, I guess the matter is now officially "settled" because of the payments, although it still occassionally gets mentioned (usually by a democrat looking to get support for something).

Quote:

---

America's Krystalnacht

---

lol, nice way of putting it(no joke intened).

you cant blame the gov because of what the people thing. i cant blame them, its like us after 911. of course were worried more about the middle east. id like to see imigration stop it like im sure they did back then.

the camps were alittle extreme, but what other options did they have? it doesnt make it completly right, but do you think there was enough jails for them all? deporting them would of been better.

but going back so many generations does seem wrong(unless they proved they didnt assimilated, then i could see people thinking of them as a threat since they werent really americans).

reparations wwas the word i couldnt come up with. i didnt know we were that late. but that not really cruel or immoral, just a really bad way of going about something.

Quote:

---

although it still occassionally gets mentioned (usually by a democrat looking to get support for something).

---

FINALLY SOME ONE WHO ADMITS IT!!!

since this could easily turn in to us-bashing im surprised more people havent gotten involved. first all the techies are pinkos, then theres no one around. im not complaining but im wonder why now.

>the camps were alittle extreme, but what other options did they have? it doesnt make it completly right, but do you think there was enough jails for them all? deporting them would of been better.

Wow.... i dont even know how to respond to this.... Just curious, how old are you?

Quote:

---

Wow.... i dont even know how to respond to this.... Just curious, how old are you?

---

hmm... not sure if i should answer this one, ill pull a democrat.

was any one even alive when this was happening? what are you(i mean, are you japense or not)?

im sure it was worse than it sounds, but from what was mentioned it seem like the worst thing was coming home.

I'm sure that there were probably suspicious Japanese who may have had intentions that would have cost American lives. However, these people were far from the majority. Think about it like this - World War II had only been waging for a few years (without US involvement) at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. The Japanese had invaded Manchuria in 1931, and then attacked China in an undeclared war again in 1937. They didn't join the Axis Powers until late 1940, and didn't attack the US until Dec. 1941. They were allied with us in 1914 for WWI. So, it's quite obvious that aggressions weren't planned against the US for more than a few years before they happened. In fact, it was probably significantly less. How many people who had lived in the United States for generations, loved the country, and hadn't had any contact with people from Japan in their entire lives do you think would have done something against the United States? They might have even joined the war effort in some way in order to prove to their country that not all Japanese people were rampant imperialists. Instead, they went to camps - even the ones who were in no way suspicious other than by nature of their genetics. I'm talking about citizens, not illegal immigrants. What ever happened to "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" or "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed" (Amendment 6) or "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." (Amendment 8) or any of the laws against racial discrimination and holding people without a charge? Here's the 14th amendment...

Quote:

---

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

---

I think that's a good one. I like it. I think we should have followed it. It was ratified in 1868, it seems that our politicians would have been familiar with it by 1941. We're a nation of immigrants. Personally, most of my ancestors came from Germany. Why weren't any of my ancestors imprisoned during WWII? We were fighting Germany... Oh yeah. This country is full of Germans, and they don't look different than the rest of the population. It would be harder to find and isolate them. I'm glad that I've never been imprisoned because I'm a caucasian male who is 3/4 German and 1/4 Norwegian. It seems right, fair, and just. I don't think that the detainment of Arab-Americans at airports is right either. If there is a question, I fall back on the phrase "all men are created equal and are endowed by their creater with certain inalienable rights." Given 5 people - one white, one black, one asian, one indian, and one hispanic - all dressed identically so that they could not be judged by that, and knowing nothing about any of them, which one is more likely to commit murder? I definitely don't know; it depends not on race, but on personality and motive.

Not sure what you meant by the "admitting it" thing when I referenced democrats, but for clarity, if you haven't realized it, I'm not a democrat. I'm conservative, but I feel that there are errors within all of the parties, and that the Republicans and Democrats are practically the same party. But that is the topic for another thread. Perhaps after we're done with this one.

yeah, the democrat part was just a bad joke. later on i have to hear about how republicans and democrats are the same(sure they both screw up, but republicans do it less).

im not excusing it, but i can see why there was fear. there still a chance that some japenese nationalism could come out of no where.

buts its like what you said, there is more germans in the us. we know them, so we dont fear them. plus germans seem alittle more american that japanese. theres nothing wrong with, but with the (very) few ive meet there was a big difference.

a sense of fear back then was natural and could of been predicted. but we did goto some extremes. but thats not really "cruel and immoral", its more half-a$$ed.

im surprised we havent done more with immigration now. we dont need the contaiment camps but im surprised i have heard of mass deportations.

Japanese-Americans were denied their basic rights as US Citizens when they were interned (illegal search and seizure, imprisonment without trial, the list goes on). Those are rights guaranteed to all Americans under the Constitution.

The government, by interning the Japanese, asserted its 'right' to revoke its founding principles simply because people were afraid of what others looked like. That is no way to run a civilized country, and the dehumanization of Japanese during that time most if not physically cruel (which it was... conditions were poor, and many people were packed into relatively small camps), it was certainly cruel mentally.

These were ordinary citizens of the US, like many of us here. They had done nothing to evoke such punishment except to be born with the wrong DNA.

in war time its not breaking anything.

it would of been alright it they were new to the country but going back that many years isnt. but its expected. we did what we thought at the time would protect us. the new immigrants had no right to object to it but the older ones did.

any one have anything that is "cruel and immoral"?

Umm... The Constitution is there to protect US citizens, whether it be in time of peace or war. And why did new immigrants have no right to object? Are they not 'American' enough? Again, fear may have motivated these actions, but it does not justify them.

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider "cruel and immoral"?

Quote:

---

The Constitution is there to protect US citizens, whether it be in time of peace or war.

---

now i have to look up the exception. i dont remember if it only worked the once or was actually written in. any one know what im thing off here?

Quote:

---

Are they not 'American' enough?

---

yes, they are not.

Quote:

---

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider "cruel and immoral"?

---

hitler-style things. i guess you could compare our camps to hitlers ghettos.

The Constitution cannot legally be suspended (nor any part of it).

So how would you define someone who is American enough to enjoy the rights of a US citizen?

Well, if you only consider homicidal/genocidal practices as cruel and immoral, I suppose that the Japanese internment is not the best example, but there are others in our history.

Quote:

---

but there are others in our history.

---

such as? im not denying it, but something besides slavery please.

Didn't think of that one. At any rate, the expansion across the continent, and killing and transplanting of Native Americans.

In more recent history, however, the US has supported many ruthless tyrants through some of their most dispicable acts: Hussein, Suharto, Noriega, et al.

On a side note, I'm not anti-American, as you may think. I just think people need to be held accountable, and policies need to change.

im not refering any one as anti-american. i thought i would but its been a ok thread so far.

as for "native [I]americans[I]", i live by alot of them(im not one). the one thing i hate about this is what did they expect? we didnt have tea partys when we wanted land in europe why would we want one in north america?

as soon as we got one shore we didnt just open fire. we wanted land like every one else did. sure, a couple of our guys started fights or were asking for them, but they werent saints either. we had guns, they didnt, we got the job done more offen. plus this was before america.

I was referring more to expansion west in the mid 1800's to early 1900's.

Quote:

---

im not refering any one as anti-american. i thought i would but its been a ok thread so far.

---

I know you're not... I just stated my last point a bit more strongly than I intended. :D

you mean like manifest destany?

what was "cruel and immoral"?

>now i have to look up the exception. i dont remember if it only worked the once or was actually written in. any one know what im thing off here?

The only exception im aware of is in times of war free speech can be limited if there is a "clear and present danger" to the US. War doesnt give the government liscense to throw the constitution out the window

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Zach L.
Japanese-Americans were denied their basic rights as US Citizens when they were interned (illegal search and seizure, imprisonment without trial, the list goes on). Those are rights guaranteed to all Americans under the Constitution.

The government, by interning the Japanese, asserted its 'right' to revoke its founding principles simply because people were afraid of what others looked like. That is no way to run a civilized country, and the dehumanization of Japanese during that time most if not physically cruel (which it was... conditions were poor, and many people were packed into relatively small camps), it was certainly cruel mentally.

These were ordinary citizens of the US, like many of us here. They had done nothing to evoke such punishment except to be born with the wrong DNA.

---

I agree.

Also, Canada wasn't very nice to Japanese Immigrants either. Go here for brief list of what we did: http://www.jcnm.ca/Jchist.htm

We removed their children from schools, took away their homes, business's, everything they worked their lives for. On top of that we evacuated them, split up their families, censored their mail, placed them in detention camps, sold their land without consulting owners, disposed of Japanese possessions without consent. Among those we also deported nearly 4000 Canadian Citizens back to Japan, and others were killed due to protests etc.. and I have no idea what Japan did to them when they arrived.

Even though we repayed the survivors it is no excuse to hide behind our wrongdoings. I, unlike martman, am able to admit that my country did something unjustified, horrible and wrong, and will not hide behind any baseless excuse possible.

Quote:

---

martman thinks:
Are they not 'American' enough?
yes, they are not.

---

So martman, given that you don't write english very well at times, how 'American' are you?

Quote:

---

So martman, given that you don't write english very well at times, how 'American' are you?

---

at times, what a understatement. lol

basicly, who ever said living in america was a right? the camps do sound worse now than when they were first mentioned. we should of just done some deporting. yes, it was overboard if we went back that many generations.

nice time line Xei.

You're not out of this yet martman. Why should we have done some deporting? What, other than skin color, made the Japanese-American citizens any different from other citizens? What reason, once again, other than skin color, did we have to deny them basic rights as citizens?

Would you consider it "understandable under the conditions" if you were deported for a similar reason?

Quote:

---

You're not out of this yet martman.

---

lol, this cant be good.

Quote:

---

Why should we have done some deporting?

---

who was the enemy? do you think we should of asked for more of them? it would be like us forgeting about a screening process for people from the middle east now.

we should of just figured out when plans were mad, say were off by a couple (as in earlier) and then deport every one from that date any after. stoping more from coming in for a couple of years would of been good then and would be good now. not forever, but for awhile.

Quote:

---

Would you consider it "understandable under the conditions" if you were deported for a similar reason?

---

no one would, you just have to hope every one else does. thats like say we shouldnt put people in jail.

The enemy was the Japanese empire - not the Japanese-american citizens. We shouldn't have allowed immigration, of course. That's completely different. Perhaps we shouldn't allow immigration from the middle east now. That's also completely different. But we shouldn't harass the arab-american citizens who've been in this country forever - we shouldn't screen them - we shouldn't deport them - we shouldn't do anything to them unless we have a probable cause. We have these things - we call them "trials." We could try some of those occasionally instead of convicting based on heritage.

heritage does play a part. take a look at the 911 guys. it doesnt mean we should condemn the whole area but we shoudl question that area. a couple of years could still be a threat, but not a century.

trails are for citizens, at soe point we have to say who is a citizen and who isnt. people here for centuries are, people for weeks/months are not. if 911 didnt bring down the towers and the men were arrested, they shouldnt of gotten a trial. the military should of just put their heads on a pike and be done with it. they werent citizens.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mart_man00
no one would, you just have to hope every one else does. thats like say we shouldnt put people in jail.

---

Flawed analogy. People are put in jail (after a trial) for a crime they commited (theoretically, though the justice system isn't perfect), not for a crime commited by someone who bears mild resemblance to them several thousand miles away.

And in your opinion, who should, and who should not receive a trial? What if they had been American citizens? Would they still not deserve a trial?

I tried to ignore you but................

Look at this letter from a US mother concerned about her son.

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/candace.htm

It objects to the spraying in 1999 of bacteria in New Mexico. It mentions other acts by the US gov. including the THE TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS STUDY. A study ending in 1972 in which black American males with syphillis were not told what disease they had, denyed treatment so syphillis could be studied. All died without being told they could be treated....

I suppose that does not matter mart_man because they were black?

Just as Camp X_Ray violating the Geneva Convention, International Law and the US constitution does not matter because the 'illegal combatants' as young as 13 are not US citizens?

http://www.healthnewsnet.com/humanexperiments.html
Has some good examples like

"1966 U.S. Army dispenses Bacillus subtilis variant niger throughout the New York City subway system. More than a million civilians are exposed when army scientists drop lightbulbs filled with the bacteria onto ventilation grates."

"1994 With a technique called "gene tracking," Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasma incognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made."

"1995 U.S. Government admits that it had offered Japanese war criminals and scientists who had performed human medical experiments salaries and immunity from prosecution in exchange for data on biological warfare research."

"1995 Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections."

Holy ........, I'm never going to the U.S.
They'll probably feed me to cats to see how they react or something crazy... then we'll get people like martman saying "Should've stayed out of our country! Hah!"

i read a couple lines and it looks like its either bull $$$$ or im going called a racists some more.

i hate pinkos...

mart_man, here's another thing to consider. I'm not going to call you any names, and neither has anybody else...and I doubt there are many pinkos on this board. But in the United States, the country in question, the philosophy of a judge in a court of law is supposed to be that "it is better to let ten guilty men walk free than to put one innocent man in jail." Now, consider the internment camps in a new light.

What's a pinko?

Quote:

---

What's a pinko?

---

im not sure how that "term" came around. basicly, a communist its more of joke now...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by minesweeper
What's a pinko?

---

The Communist nations were known as red back during the Cold War. Hence, the people who were "kinda" communist but not totally communist were pink, instead of totally red. A person who is pink is a pinko.

BTW, about what novacain said, damn. I'm an American and if that really happened, it has definately been quite hush hush.

I am not denying it though as I have no evidence either way. However, I don't know how reliable a sketchy website such as that is.

Any place with a link to the 'Office of Human Radiation Experiments' has to be dodgy........What does it say about a country that needs an Office of Human Radiation Experiments?


Look at the reports they are trying to sell (as they are not available on the web, mostly)

http://www.healthnewsnet.com/reports.html

Careful, some may scare you...........like

THE RIEGLE REPORT on the WMD the US sold to Sadam and D Rumsfelt's grudging confession that he had been the one to arrange the sales.



Just in case you don't know. You don't have to be a US citizen to fight in the US armed forces. Nor does active service get you a citizenship, postmortem or otherwise..........

Quote:

---

Originally posted by novacain

Look at the reports they are trying to sell (as they are not available on the web, mostly)

http://www.healthnewsnet.com/reports.html

---

Exactly, sell! They make money off of stories like these. This website isn't exactly as credible as cnn.com or something like that.

>.Exactly, sell!

My understanding is you have to pay a fee to get these reports under the 'freedom of information act'.

My point was they are copies of declassified government reports. The CIA ones have markers with "<lines deleted>" throughout them.

I don't consider CNN an unbiased or reliable source either though. CNN's business is to sell you products, not inform you. Its not that CNN misrepresents the facts, it just ignores some.

For example;
Find on CNN who in the US is accusing Australians of ripping off the US taxpayer and supporting Sadam.
Then try and find out why.
The secret is in Canadian rail cars......

You may need the magic word.......monsanto

>>The secret is in Canadian rail cars......
Now im interested. But Im too lazy to go research, do you have any links handy?

As far as CNN goes -
One day a few months ago, before the war, I was reading along in the Jerusalem Post (www.jpost.com, free registration necessary). There was an article mentioning that Germany stated that they have knowledge that Iraq had smallpox (at the time of the article). That surprised me, because I had just read all the "important" stories on CNN and hadn't seen it. I went back to CNN and ran a search. I read every article with the word "smallpox" in it within as long as the search goes back...quite some time; I read 40 articles or so. Jerusalem Post had the story - CNN had no mention. Jerusalem Post - Israel. CNN - USA, had to support the war, even at the cost of journalistic integrity? You be the judge.

>>CNN - USA, had to support the war, even at the cost of journalistic integrity? You be the judge.

Prahaps they did not want to state the reason they knew Iraq had smallpox.

The Riegle report (a US senate inquiry).

Where the US admin admitted it sold Iraq things like smallpox, sarin, botulism, anthrax and the helecopters to spray the stuff.
The US continued to sell these items to Sadam even AFTER he had used them on his own people.

>>The secret is in Canadian rail cars......
>>Now im interested.

Nothing given too easily is valued highly.............(the people who own the media and Monsanto do not want you to know the full reasons, so it is not in one place)

What Canadian group has the US taken to the WTO citing unfair competion (based, partially, on the use of govenment funded rail cars) and of having a monopoly?

Why such a big fuss over a few rail cars?

It comes down to what Monsanto makes.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_...5E1702,00.html

Blackrat, why do you even bother reading Novacain's lies and
ridiculous claims?

Iraq's use of chemical weapons is very, very well documented and
easily searchable on the Web. Iraq doesn't even have helicopters
for one thing. The guy's a lying moron. Always has been and always will be until the day he leaves here (hopefully and mecifully
soon). This is the same nitwit who swears to all gullible enough
to listen that the 9-11 attack on the Pentagon didn't happen, or was staged by the Pentagon to appear as if it did happen.
:rolleyes:

actually, we gave the Iraqis the biological seedstock for bio weapons during the iraqi-irani war, knowing that is was going to be used in Cities.Not to mention VP dick cheney made over 200 million dollars for selling oil equipment right before the embargo on trade was enacted.

quite frankly, each and every country does this, and each and every one holds it hush hush. The idea one country is better than every other one is an ignorant idea.

I'm sorry Rick but these are not lies, according the US government.

Is this extract from the US senate report (aka the Riegle Report) a lie?

" Other ways in which biological materials could have been weaponized include the use of Iraqi 250 and 500lb bombs, aerial rockets, unmanned aerial vehicles, FAW ground-to-ground missiles, helicopters and Iraqi aircraft. The Committee has received several reports of Iraqi helicopters penetrating Saudi airspace during the war by flying at low levels through the wadis and of Iraqi aircraft penetrating the area over the northern Persian Gulf."

http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/r_1_2.html#exports

\\NOTE : This is a copy of the actual US senate report.

Is the CIA lying here Rick?

"Location:Khan Bani Saad – Aug 1988

Agent:Bacillus subtilis

Munition: aerosol generator – Mi-2 helicopter with modified agricultural spray equipment"

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...ct_2002.htm#05

Check the dates, Rick. GWB's daddy did not care about Sadam getting this stuff.

Halabja-March 1988
Iraq gases Kurdish civilian village. 5,000 Men, women and children killed.

Just one example of the stuff the US sent Sadam.
"Date : September 29, 1988
Sent To : Ministry of Trade
Materials Shipped:

1. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 240)
Batch # 05-14-63 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

2. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 938)
Batch # 1963 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

3. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 3629)
Batch # 10-23-85 (3 each)

4. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 8009)
Batch # 03-30-84 (3 each)

5. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 8705)
Batch # 06-27-62 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

6. Brucella abortus (ATCC 9014)
Batch # 05-11-66 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

7. Clostridium perfringens (ATCC 10388)
Batch # 06-01-73 (3 each)

8. Bacillus anthracis (ATCC 11966)
Batch #05-05-70 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

9. Clostridium botulinum Type A
Batch # 07-86 (3 each)
Class III pathogen

10. Bacillus cereus (ATCC 33018)
Batch # 04-83 (3 each)

11. Bacillus ceres (ATCC 33019)
Batch # 03-88 (3 each)"

Clostridium perfringens :: a highly toxic bateria which causes gas gangrene

Bacillus anthracis :: Anthrax

Clostridium botulinum Type A :: A bacterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.



Which bit can you not accept Rick?
That the pure US does this kind of thing?
Or that it lies to its citizens about it?
Or that the US gets paid to help Sadam kill innocents?


>>This is the same nitwit who swears to all gullible enough to listen that the 9-11 attack on the Pentagon didn't happen, or was staged by the Pentagon to appear as if it did happen.<<

Never once have I said this.
If I have said it (and YOU have read it) it is on this site.

So provide a link to the thread or STFU!

How I despair for places where patriotism blinds a countries citizens to reality.

>>Not to mention VP dick cheney made over 200 million dollars for selling oil equipment right before the embargo on trade was enacted.<<

Guess what company got the Iraq Oil contract this time without a tender process?

Why did the US give the company, WorldCom, still in the courts for the worlds biggest accounting scandal (and no experience in mobile phones) the mobile contract in Iraq?

As to the wheat issue.
Monsanto want to introduce GM wheat. It can't because consumers don't want to use this GM grain. If Canada does not change its 'free rail cars to Canadian wheat farmers' then the GM grain will be easily tracked and separated. Best way to get this achieved, destroy the Canadian grain marketing coop (as it is a monopoly) thru the WTO.

This report also claims to be of CIA origin.Should we believe this one, or yours? I misread the first reading; it appears the rackis do ordid have helicopters for delivery. But they weren't U.S. They were Russian Mi 8's. All the weaponry used by the Irakis was Russian.

The Pentqagon thing wasn't posted by you but Minesweeper.
Sorry. It just sounded like you.




File: 970613_092596_ui_txt_0001.txt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: IRAQI CHEMICAL WARFARE DATA



Overview:
- Iraq has an extremely sophisticated CW production capbility.
- Iraq has used CW on Kurds & Iranians with little reservatlon.
- Use approval resides with Hussein.
- Production under State Establishment for Pesticide Production
Iraqi Chemical Weapons:
- Iraqi Blister: Mustard, Dusty-Mustard; poss. lewisite.
* (U) Mustard: persistent, oily liquid. Normally takes 4-6
hours for tissue corruption, unless droplets are inhaled.
Persistence is 32-36 hours.
Dusty-Mustard: solid particulates impregnated with mustard
agent. Forms dust cloud upon release. Minute particulates are
esaily inhaled and corrupt lung tissue in 10-15 minutes. Can
also get onto skin and become active via sweat, etc.
[b.1. sec. 1.5.(a)] Is not a true
perssitent agent, as a breeze/wind can reduce residual effect
through dispersal. Also, it adheres to larger partlcles once
settled, thus it is difficult to become airborne a second time
for inhalation. Skin contact & activation, however, is still
possible in areas of concentration.
* (U) Lewisite: like mustard, except faster acting.
Persistence is 24 hours to one week.

- Iraqi Nerve: Sarin, Tuban; possibly Soman & VX.
* (U) Sarin & Tuban G-agent; non-persistent nerve compounds
that can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Persistence
is approx 30 minutes.
* (U) Soman: G-agent; non-persistent nerve compound like Sarin
& Tuban, but reacts faster, is more easily absorbed through
skin, and is less responsive to therapy. Persistence is 4-5
hours.
* (U) VX: V-agent; persistent nerve compound. is rated higher
in reaction time, lethality, etc. than G-agents. Persistence is
300-325 hours.

- Iraqi Riot Control: CS.
* (U) CS: an advanced, non-persistent tearing agent.
*Note: Agent persistence is reduced in hot climates

(U) Standard Chemical Use Doctrine:
- (U) Persistent Agents: Used as an area denial weapon against
high lnterest enemy targets (airflelds, loglstic centers, HQs,
etc.) or to impede enemy advance/resupply across known choke
points. Will not be used in areas its own troops are expected
to operate in.

- (U) Non-Persistent Agents: Two primary uses. First, it is
used defensively to break up an oncomlng attack, thus causing
confusion and forcing attackers to don restrictive chemical
warfare suits. Second, it is used offensively to degrade enemy
defenses prior to attack by own troops.



(U) Riot Control Agent: Intended to break up demonstrations or
incapacitate occupants in closed areas (buildlngs), it has been
successfully used defensively on battle field to break up
oncoming attacks, thus causing confusion and forcing the
attackers to don restrictive masks (as in non-persistent agents
above). Its use is more desirable than non-persistent lethal
agents when necessary in close proximity to own troops or in
unpredlctable winds.

Iraqi CW Use in Missiles: There is no proof that Iraq
has mated chemical warheads to its misslle assets (SCUDs,
etc.). It is well within their technology, however, and must
not be discounted. The best agent would be dusty agents, due to
their excellent ballistic quallty as a Warhead fill agent.
Also, wlth Iraq's method of keeping liquid chemical agents in
plastic vials, and inserting the required vials into ordnance
As required, filling a SCUD warhead with such vials is possible
(CEP would suffer when compared to HE or dusty agents which
provlde more consistent density and balance). As for tactics,
typical SCUD-type military target would be an airfleld,
logistic center, or HQ. For such targets, both immediate and
long-term agent effectiveness is desired to initiate and
maintain confuslon/restrictive worklng conditions. Thus, VX
would be ideal lf currently in production. If stlll
unavailable, a mix of persistent and non-persistent agents is
llkely (either by firing several missiles of different types,
or more likely by mixing agent vials in each warhead). Dusty
mustard can be employed, but most probably by itself as initial
blast-dispersal with a combined liquid warhead (in one missile)
would llkely negate the dry, dust cloud effect desired. Thus,
with current known Iraqi agents, a combined nerve G-
agent/mustard is Iraq's best CW missile warhead, augmented by
separate firings of dusty mustard.13

Iraqi Biological Weapons:
- Iraq is assessed with a mature offensive BW program. Assessed
biological agents include anthrax, cholera, gas gangrene,
botulinum toxin, staphlococcal enterotoxin, brucellosis, and
mycotoxins.
- Iraq is currently estlmated to have acquired sufficient
microbal media for 74 billion human-lethal doses of botulinum
toxin.
- Delivery means include all current Iraql CW systems, plus
covert release via non-mllltary ship or aircraft. Can be
released upwind [b.1. sec 1.5.(a)] and like chemical
weapons, atmospheric conditions favor night & early morning
release.

Iraql Chem/Bio Reaearch & Productlon Facllitly:
- Salman Pak (3304N 04435E) 18NM Southeast of Baghdad.
* Main research center.
- Samarra (3350N 04350E) 40NM Northwest of Baghdad.
*Main production facility.
- Habbaniyah (3332N 04337E) 47NM Northwest of Baghdad.
*Assessed as producer of precursor chemicals supporting the
Samarra production facility. Possibly also does final
production of some agents.

13 Note: dusty particulates can be impregnated with any
chemical agent. To date, dusty mustard is the only proven agent
Iraq has particulated.
? Iraqi Chem/Bio Aerial Delivery Systems:

Type Size Platform
Aerial bomb 250/500kg Fixed Wing & MI-8
Spray Apparatus 1500L Tank MI-8
Canisters Unk MI-8
AS Rockets 90mm MI-8
Canister Bomb14 Unk Fixed Wing & MI-8

Fixed Wing Acft: F-l, MIG-23, & SU-20/22; poss. PC-7 & EMB-312.
* Any of their acft with hardpoints can be used, however.

Iraqi Chem/Bio Ground Delivery Systems:
Type Size
Mortar 82 & 120mm
Field Arty 122, 130, 152, 155, 180mm
MRL 122mm
Recoilless Rifle 106mm

I R A Q I A N T I - P E R S O N N E L L A S E R S

1. During the Iran/Iraq War, Iranian soldlers suffered over 4000
documented eye casualtles from Iraqi laser systems, enough to indicate
Iraq's employment of some laser systems specifically for their casuaity-
producing effect. The Iranian casualties showed effects caused by
different types of lasers, which is indicative of the mix of western and
Communist-block systems in the Iraqi inventory. While range and power
considerations make their use more difficult against aircraft than
ground personnel, a soldier possessing such a system will certainly
attempt to use it when under air attack. Unfortunately, the Iranian
fighter/bomber pilots routinely avoided low level tactics over Iraqi
ground troops, thus providing no historical data for assessment.

2. Daytime tracking of aircraft would obviously be easier for the
laser operator, accomplished by binoculars mechanically boresighted to
the laser system. Daytime dazzle effects, however, are reduced due to
the eye's adaption to bright, daytime light. At night, the operator has
a considerably more difficult time aiming the device, but its effect is
several magnitudes higher due to the increased sengitivlty of the night-
adapted eye.

3. Blinding and vision disruption by visible and IR lasers in
third world inventories are primarily low-power sygtems, which limits
their retina damage to a range of about 2NM. The primary threat for
aircrews would be the ND:YAG laser, which is invislble and painless
during exposure, and capable of retina damage to a range of about 3NM.
Iraq, with its extensive mix of western and Communist-block systems, can
be expected to deploy the full spectrum of available tactical lasers.

* Not avallable in Iran/Iraq war, is assessed available now, Iraq's
use of CW/BIO cluster munitions will greatly increases dispersal on
target.

Here's the link. Hope it works. Just search Google.

http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/9708..._txt_0001.html


?

Not so abusive this time Rick.

helicopters ->But they weren't U.S.
"absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
There are reports about Regan funding the Iraqi purchase of Italian helicopters. Someone was silly enough to write it in their diary after Regan had 'forgotten'.


>>All the weaponry used by the Irakis was Russian.

No it wasn't. As the Riegle report I posted clearly shows. The US even sent Iraq nuke technology.

Check the weapons the UNSCOM inspectors found and destroyed under Butler and Ritter for more details.

I fail to see the relevence of your CIA report to this discussion (or why it should be believed over the one I posted).
One of mine is from the CIA's site.

How does it contradict that Iraq was supplied with WMD by the US?

From your site, FAS
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2002/09/092602.html
The precursor to the actual Riegle Report.
From that report

""Did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq War? Are we, in fact, now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown?"

When Senator Robert Byrd posed those bothersome questions to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at a September 19 hearing, Rumsfeld dismissed the matter with a curt "I doubt it." "

I saw some of the vision.......
The look on Rumsfelt's face when he was shown the 1983 video of him shaking hands with Sadam in Iraq, after denying it had taken place, was priceless.

>>The Pentqagon thing wasn't posted by you but Minesweeper.
<<

It was? Do you mean that conspiracy thing on the plane flown into the pentagon? That was mere food for thought rather than a OMG THE U.S. IS OUT TO GET US!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by novacain
after Regan had 'forgotten'.

---

Dude, do you have any respect for people whatsoever? The guy has freaking althemiesers (however you spell it). Or is that a conspiracy too?

There's a certain point when I get ........ed. Insulting the diseased is just ridiculous.

>>The guy has freaking althemiesers

Sorry, I forget most of you are too young to remember these things happening.

Reagan did not have the symptoms of WHILE he was president (until 1988). His classic 'I can't remember" was in the Tower Report 1987. Both Bush snr (vice Pres) and Reagan claimed to have no knowledge of selling arms to Iran for hostages and aiding the contras, financed by drug running into the US, in Nicaragua (both covert ops by the NSA).

Col. Oliver North who took the fall (and others) claimed they did.

The someone I mentioned with a diary was Caspar Weinberger.

This is a summary
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0825447.html

Whatever, I'm wrong then. A high official lied, that's something new. :rolleyes:

I acknowledge that our country does some stupid stuff. But, you are making it seem that we're an evil empire and are the only ones who do this. Although it doesn't make our actions any better, this crap happens in everyone's country.

"Although it doesn't make our actions any better, this crap happens in everyone's country."

I tend to agree. I think the US is targetted because

a) Its more powerfull, hence its actions tend to be more significant

and

b) Because its percieved by alot of non-US people that many if not most US citizens are shrouded in a thick cloak of nationalistic fog which blinds them from ever seeing that their country is ever or has ever been in the wrong. (*cough* Mart_man, OSR, *cough*)

- Mistakes must first be recognised before they can be addressed.

Quote:

---

I acknowledge that our country does some stupid stuff. But, you are making it seem that we're an evil empire and are the only ones who do this. Although it doesn't make our actions any better, this crap happens in everyone's country.

---

this scares me. im agreeing with golfinguy4, must be becuase thats basicly what i said a couple times in the other thread.

Clyde, part b, hmmm. one or two mistakes out of a couple billion. i hate the when in doubt blame america crap.

the mistakes any one can ever says are: slavery - we didnt start it, we didnt created, it was done to more than one group to with less whining, the camps - we went overboard here, we wanted to secure the country and did but screw some japanese, we should of done a better job but the gov didnt send any one to a concentration camp or steel any houses. hell, half the time were blowing our money away to any country asking for it. look at all the money we give to every one. even our enemys in war get paid off. no alot of countries dont even have militaries, if something happens they going to call us, like they always have. we screw up a COUPLE of times, but find a country that has done a better job. stop whining.

I think that Mauritius has done a better job. You haven't heard of that country, have you? Must be because they aren't making any international blunders. Their literacy rate is a bit low, but they have people from major religions which are generally in conflict living together peacefully. Maybe we should move there.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/mp.html

funny how that info came from america, on a american medium.

funny how it was just one of the links Google gave me. I didn't say that America is always wrong - and there is plenty of information that you can use to verify the CIA factbook. Look here for some of it.

Well, you've forced me to read that damned Riegle Report, n.

The Report seems (I have not finished readfing it) to say that
Iraq was very capable of building its own WMD without any
inconceivable help from the U.S. as you claim.

The Introduction claims there was a DoD coverup of the
Iraqi use of chemical agents during the first Gulf War. The
DoD denied that U.S. troops were exposed to chemical agents
and the Riegle Report strongly contradicts this claim.

From, Chapter 1. Iraqi Chemical and Biological Warfare Capability:

"Iraq was believed to have been manufacturing mustard gas at a production facility in Samarra since the early 1980s. It also began an extensive program to produce nerve agent precursor chemicals, taking advantage of its own natural resources. Phosphate mines/industries are at Akashat, Al Qaim, and Rutbah. The Iraqi Al Fallujah gas warfare complex was believed to be capable of producing up to 1,000 tons per month of Sarin, as well as the nerve agent VX. In addition, with the assistance of foreign firms, Iraq developed the capability to experiment with hydrogen cyanide, cyanogen chloride, and lewisite. By the start of the Gulf War, Iraqi forces had developed chemical delivery capabilities for rifle grenades, 81mm mortars, 152mm, 130mm, and 122mm artillery rounds; bombs; 90mm air-to-ground rockets; 216 kilogram FROG and 555 kilogram SCUD warheads; and possibly land mines and cruise missiles."

"British troops also discovered Iraqi chemical mines on the Gulf battlefield, according to Gannett News Service. A British official (not further identified) said the incident was reported to Prime Minister John Major's war cabinet; no details were given."


"In April 1993, weapons inspectors from the United Nations charged with locating all of Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons by U.N. Resolution 687, confirmed that in Muthanna, 65 miles northwest of Baghdad, Iraq manufactured a form of mustard gas as well as Sarin and Tabun, both nerve agents. "

"U.N. inspectors have concluded that the Muthanna plant was capable of producing two tons of Sarin and five tons of mustard gas daily. The plant was also capable of manufacturing VX, a nerve gas and one of the most toxic chemicals ever produced."

"There is substantial evidence to suggest that in the use of chemical weapons, as in other military areas, the Iraqi military adhered, at least in part, to Soviet military doctrine. Soviet military doctrine suggested that chemical warfare should be conducted with mixed agents. "

More from your hallowed Riegle Report:


Related Chemical Agent Information


Committee staff has learned that Iraq may have acquired any one of a number of the Soviet binary novachok ("newcomer") series of chemical warfare agent compounds or information relevant to the development of those compounds. This series of chemical warfare agents reportedly contains both lethal and debilitating agents. According to a confidential Committee source, if the Iraqis had obtained samples of these compounds they could be easily analyzed and produced with readily available materials. Several of these compounds are described as agents that even in microdoses can have long lasting effects. These agents are described as inducing myosis, vomiting, memory loss, involuntary motions and internal organ dysfunction. Many of these materials are also described as having mutagenic effects. These materials are, according to the source, stored in the lipids (body fats) and have no known antidotes. In addition, according to the Committee source, the Soviets were believed to have conducted research in a number of dioxin-based chemical warfare agents, and on at least one agent that could be used to contaminate drinking water supplies. Committee staff is conducting further inquiries to determine if Iraq may have had access to any of these compounds.

So far, your claim of Iraq's having help with its WMD program are
half true. You just had te wrong country tabbed as helping them.

Edit:

Ok the report is done and read. Yes, there is a section in the report which contains what appears to be a long list of
toxic agents that were exported from the U.S. to Iraq prior to
the first Gulf War. The report gives no information on the amount
of agents shipped to Iraq, nor does it list the exporting companies
or the length of time the exports continued , nor when the exports began or ended. These exports were not the main focus
of the Riegle Report.

The problem one has with journalism like yours, novacain, is its
blatant one-sidedness. You are so quick to point out American
missteps wherever they occur, but you conveniently forget to
balance your "facts" with the counterweight of a greater Russian
involvment with the Iraki chemical weapons developers and the
Iraqui government's own capabilities and culpabilities in produceing their own weapons of mass destruction. You slant your writing to make it appear that the U.S. did everything it could to help Iraq develop chemical weapons and then stupidly
went to war against them. It just doesn't ring true for my ears, and until I hear more convincing music than what you are playing,
I can't begin to change my opinion that what you write are lies
written for your own personal reasons, whatever they may be.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by blackrat364
I think that Mauritius has done a better job. You haven't heard of that country, have you? Must be because they aren't making any international blunders. Their literacy rate is a bit low, but they have people from major religions which are generally in conflict living together peacefully. Maybe we should move there.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/mp.html

---

No offense to Mauritius as I actually know someone from there, but, you can't compare a 2030 sq. km set of islands to the US. In larger, more powerful, more successful countries, one makes a lot more enemies, has a lot more people of different beliefs together, and a lot more people to protect. Also, since there are more people, there are more wackos as well who are going to do stupid stuff and give your country a bad name.

I know that the USSR, China, France, Germany, UK and US all supplied arms of some form to Iraq in the 1980’s.
These nations were falling over one another to gain access to Iraq’s newly nationalized oil and ensure that Iraq did not lose the Iraq v Iran war. This was important to stop the fundamentalist Moslem revolution spreading from Iran (to protect Western interests in the area and Israel).
At this point they all knew what Sadam was doing with the WMD they were supplying him with (using them on Iranians and Iraqi Kurds). The US even supplied Sadam with the antidote (Atropine) even though no other power in the region had chemical weapons.

>> written for your own personal reasons, whatever they may be.<<
My whole point is to try and stop this happening again. The only country powerful enough to do this is the US but its citizens are unaware of their own countries involvement and blame the problem on others. Only by being aware that a problem exists can it be dealt with and resolved.

>>These exports were not the main focus of the Riegle Report.<<
No the main focus of the Riegle report was that the US servicemen were exposed to WMD during Desert Storm and this was covered up by the US government (denying servicemen treatment). Or do you have a different ‘take’ on what the Riegle Report was about?

>>Yes, there is a section in the report which contains what appears to be a long list of toxic agents that were exported from the U.S.
771 separate exports of chemical and biological precursors were identified.
>>The report gives no information on the amount of agents shipped to Iraq, nor does it list the exporting companies or the length of time the exports continued , nor when the exports began or ended.
“Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning "disease producing"), toxigenic (meaning "poisonous"), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier.” Riegle Report
Re-read my post with the list on it, it includes dates and amounts. (I will not repeat the post).

Here is a time frame from 1980.
Note this section
“· Analysts recognized that "civilian" helicopters can be weaponized in a matter of hours and selling a civilian kit can be a way of giving military aid under the guise of civilian assistance. Shortly after removing Iraq from the terrorism sponsorship list, the Reagan administration approved the sale of 60 Hughes helicopters. Later, and despite some objections from the National Security Council (NSC), the Secretaries of Commerce and State (George Baldridge and George Shultz) lobbied the NSC advisor into agreeing to the sale to Iraq of 10 Bell helicopters, officially for crop spraying. See "1988" for note on Iraq using U.S. Helicopters to spray Kurds with chemical weapons.”
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html


Here is a short list of those items and the companies that exported them from the US
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/pubs...992/10-27.html

Here are some more reports including many sales of US aircraft inc. helicopters (as we were discussing, over US$65 million worth)
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/coun...LicenseMD.html

These are from the Wisconsin Uni’s project to stop the proliferation of WMD.