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Matrix Reloaded Questions (SPOILERS_

This is a discussion on Matrix Reloaded Questions (SPOILERS_ within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; The architect had to show him the new door. That was the fatal flaw in the program: Choice. Neo had ...

  1. #31
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    The architect had to show him the new door. That was the fatal flaw in the program: Choice. Neo had to be able to choose. If he hadn't been able to choose then there would have been no flaw in the program at all.

    I just saw the film and I was very impressed by it. My biggest concern going in was that the film would not be able to keep up with the origanal's philosophical and nearly religious edge. However, my hopes were unwarrented. The film maintaned the psycological, philosophical, and nearly religious twist that the first Matrix contained while at the same time delivering killer effects. Great film.
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  2. #32
    RoD
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    ive been seeing previews for a new matrix video game the last two days, will this be on pc also?

  3. #33
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    One thing i want to know, if Neo has been born six times and lived six lives how can he be human?

  4. #34
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    ive been seeing previews for a new matrix video game the last two days, will this be on pc also?
    I picked up the PC version the day it was released. It is available on all platforms (except Gameboy Advance ; )). You should definitely get it as it is a huge supplement to the movie. There is an additional hour of footage that wasn't in the film that gives you a lot more about the story and there's no other way to get it. Aside from that the gameplay is UNbelievable.
    One thing i want to know, if Neo has been born six times and lived six lives how can he be human?
    Neo wasn't born six times. Neo is the sixth One to be born inside the matrix. The way it works, the way the Architect explained, is that the only way they could get the matrix to work was to get it where 99.9% of the people accepted the program (by giving them a choice, even if it is on a near unconscious level). Thereby creating a fundamental flaw in the system itself which after time sort of collects and gets larger and larger until The One is born and that "special" code that gathered is intrinsic to his code in the matrix. At least that's the way I interpreted it, but am open to other hypotheses.

  5. #35
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    One thing i want to know, if Neo has been born six times and lived six lives how can he be human?
    Two reasons:

    One reason for this is the strong links the film to christian mythology/theology. It especially links Jesus and Neo. There is a lot of evidence for this - but I don't want to turn this into a religious thread so I will give you the other plot based reason...

    Neo hasn't been born 6 times. "One like him" has. That is the flaw. 1% of people born have a choice. And cyclically "The One" is born. The One rejects the matrix more than others and ends up with the Architech and has to make a choice. Right door or left door (A choice that resonates red or blue pill...but anyway...). If he chooses the right door he reinsertes the code he contains. That code is the basis of the fundamental flaw - it is the code for the Matrix to produce someone like him. Then the matrix resets and he rebuilds Zion. That is The Choice that is made. Every time before him The various Ones chose that door because they didn't want to see the end of humanity. However, Neo is slightly diffrent - the program doesn't repeat perfectly and the events in the real world don't repeat perfectly - he has love for Trinity which the previous Ones haven't had. Plus he understands all of this and rejects the matrix more than others in the past. He is the first one to choose the left door. Thus he denies the matrix of its fundamental flaw in the code that it can't live without and therefore eventually the matrix will be destroyed.
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  6. #36
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Neo wasn't born six times. Neo is the sixth One to be born inside the matrix"

    Ah i see, it's just that i thought that during the scene with the architect the video screens were showing previous versions of Neo and how he had responded then. Which is why i thought each time "the one" had been Neo.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-22-2003 at 09:12 AM.

  7. #37
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    No those screens represented choice. All of the possible responses that Neo could have made were displayed on those screens. It zoomed in on the ones that he chose.
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  8. #38
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "No those screens represented choice. All of the possible responses that Neo could have made were displayed on those screens. It zoomed in on the ones that he chose"

    Right, ok that makes sense.

    Another question, do people in the matrix have choice or the illusion of choice?

    The architect seemed to be saying that people had real genuine choice, but the scene with the French guy seemed to me to suggest that people didn't have any real choice at all they just thought they did.

  9. #39
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    Both. The people had choice on whether or not to choose the matrix or not - on a subconscious level. 99% accepted. 1% like Neo and Morpheous rejected it. The architect said people had choice to choose or reject the matrix. However those into the matrix were controlled by the programming/code of the matrix according to the French guy. What the French guy didn't account for however was that Neo wasn't controlled bu the matrix. He had chosen to reject it.

    But another important part here is that the choices didn't matter. They don't matter. They were part of the machine. This is why neo has no guilt killing them when nessicary. They are simply part of the machine. It relates back to the councilmans discussion about the machines in Zion. The people/programs whose choices mattered were the rougues. The people who chose to reject the matrix and the programs who chose to reject its rules by not being deleted.
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  10. #40
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    However, Neo is slightly diffrent - the program doesn't repeat perfectly and the events in the real world don't repeat perfectly - he has love for Trinity which the previous Ones haven't had.
    Something else is well worth noting: The main difference between Neo and the previous Ones is the one pointed out by Agent Smith "Everything is happening like before" "Not exactly." The main difference is that Agent Smith has unprecedented power because of the bits of code that he and Neo exchanged. I believe that he is the only reason that the cycle will not repeat this time as it did 5 times before.

    No those screens represented choice. All of the possible responses that Neo could have made were displayed on those screens. It zoomed in on the ones that he chose.
    That is a very excellent explanation. I hadn't arrived at that conclusion, but I think it is brilliant (as simple as it may appear).

  11. #41
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    I remember the Agent Smith line, but not the context. Are you sure it wasn't regering to something else. Especially since I thought the Arcitech seemed to indicate that only he and the Oracel were around every time. Either way though - even with the exchange the thing that drove Neo to choose the left door was love, which the architect indicated was diffrent about Neo. Remember how the Architech explained how the chemical processes in Neo's brain were deciding that the only logical choice was to choose the right door? None of the previous Ones had had love to contend with. And without that insanely strong emotion the only logical choice is to rebuild and save humanity. However when love is part of the picture things are diffrent, so Neo chose the other door.

    Of course all ove this could be pointless. The Oracle doesn't tell the truth - just what is need to be told. It is quite possible that the architect does the same. Therefore all previous Ones have actually also chosen the left door like Neo - and like Neo they had a small group of people to help them rebuild. I don't think this is likely - especially considering the final scene and they fact that this is a movie and it would suck in ratings if it ended in a cycle. But it is concievable I believe.
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  12. #42
    Lead Moderator kermi3's Avatar
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    I am going to try and address my opinions on the first post of this thread...bear with me if I make no sense, it's just my take...

    Ok first of all there is a matrix within the matrix - but it isn't what you think it is. The Matrix in the matrix is the interdependance between man and machine in the real world as described by the Councilman. The outer matrix also includes the real world. Another example is how the Architect sets up the rebuilding of Zion every time. He has to. Without it the fatal yet critical flaw in his programming cannot exsist. Neo describes Zion and the legend of the One as just another layer of control. I agree with this. However why does the control have to be in the matrix? The architect is instead manipulating people in the real world to ensure that they don't win the fight, while at the same time continually recycling the critical flaw back into the program.

    Now - as to Neo having powers in the real world. I think this is possible. Remember Neo has all kinds of implants and machines within him. If he has chosen (subconciously) to be aware of this then why couldn't be have some real world powers - especially like those he displayed. As far as I could tell he just let loose a bunch of electricity. This could be in the real world - just surging the machines in side of himself for example.

    An outer matrix is possible I suppose the more I think about it - one to keep the inner one stable. But I think it could be fesable in the Matrix as well. However - if the real world is an outer matrix then Neo knows it and therefore can take it apart. I think it is also possible that it isn't.

    I think the more important message though once again goes back to the councilman on the engineering deck. Machines and people are in a matrix no matter how you look at it. They need us and we need them.
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  13. #43
    RoD
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    whats the exact game title?

  14. #44
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    None of the previous Ones had had love to contend with.
    You say that with such certainty, but how can you be so sure about that? They may each have had a love just as Neo does. Heck, previous Ones may have even been female. Consider that...
    To refresh your memory about the context of that line, it was right after Neo's first fight with the three agents. The street light came crashing down and Neo flew away. Enter Agent Smith (keep in mind that up to this point, we know nothing of any other Agent Smiths) and only he is on screen when he says "It's happening just like before" then, voila, reveal a shocking surprise to the audience: a second Agent Smith responding "Not exactly." Because of the way he was revealed and the way he said that line, I am quite confident that what he was talking about is his newfound powers. Remember that Agent Smith has probably been around for all five Ones and seen them all come and go. This time it's happening just like the last five, with one exception, and that is Agent Smith's powers and abilities.. Once again, this is exactly why (and the only reason why in my estimation) that the cycle will fail to repeat a sixth time.

    Rod: The title of the game is "Enter the Matrix."

  15. #45
    RoD
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    thank ya, im going to aquire it now

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