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Matrix Reloaded Questions (SPOILERS_

This is a discussion on Matrix Reloaded Questions (SPOILERS_ within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; the first matrix is the real matrix, but like the 'programmer' said, there is a small percent of people who ...

  1. #16
    Registered User major_small's Avatar
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    this is what I think:

    the first matrix is the real matrix, but like the 'programmer' said, there is a small percent of people who won't accept the matrix. Neo is that small percent.

    the second matrix (outside the first matrix) contains zion, the sentinals, the oracle, and the agent's controller.

    zion is a city started by neo (as said by the programmer) to act as both an overflow buffer in case people escape from the matrix.

    zion had to be started so that the oracle can start the prophecies, which will start the people searching for neo.

    once neo is found, the programmer (outside the second matrix, with a pointer inside the first matrix) gets him into his little room thing and sends the sentianals to clear the buffer and start again.

    if neo goes through the door to start again, they take his personality and tweak the matrix to make it acceptable to him (100% of people)



    neo could kill the sentinals because he is awakening from the second matrix. i think the guy that tried to kill neo (on the bed at the end) is also controlled from out there, like the agents are controlled by something in the second matrix (i'm guessing here).

    on the outside of all matrices, nobody really knows what's happening... maybe earth isnt' controlled by machines at all... maybe it's a new hitler or some kind of scientific experiment... maybe it's just some computer program that's being written...

    that brings me to my very far-reaching idea: maybe the matrix is recursive: somebody writes a matrix, and somebody in that matrix writes another matrix...
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  2. #17
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    You may be correct. My friend just gave me another idea though, you remember how Neo would be forced to select individuals to re-start Zion if he went through the door to his right? and that Zion had been destroyed 5 times, and that they had become increasingly efficient in doing it? Then remember Neo asking the counsellor "Is that why there are only elderly people on the counsel?" then the counsellor said "Good Point", but did not answer his question. Perhaps Zion has been destroyed many times in the real world(and this is why the counsel wanted the Nebbechznnezer, or whatever, to be escorted by 2 ships), Neo also said to the Architect "Either nobody told me, or noone knows." but then how would the sentinals be able to tell the difference between the people who he chose to live? But then that comes to fate, where the Architect says "Your mind has already been made up" and same with the Oracle saying that with "You just have to understand why you made that decision", but then the Architect said things like the Oracle being one who programmed the matrix to accept the biological/psychological make-up of the humans or something like that. But if it is the real world then that wouldn't explain how Neo had powers in the real world.... so thats just weird. Anyways, I saw it again last night and waited for the trailor after the credits, it was too short.
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  3. #18
    Registered User major_small's Avatar
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    I think the cousil is killed with the rest of zion... they are just replaced with new people every time the matrices are restarted...

    i think the people the sentinals can't kill are protected... idk.. i've come to think of the first matrix of a sort of function/struct with pointers only, the second matrix a class with that function/struct in it, holding mostly pointers and some functions (like the oracle), and outside that the real world... if you want to call it the main(), with only the programmer and the real people, where neo is awakening to...
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  4. #19
    mov.w #$1337,D0 Jeremy G's Avatar
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    UGHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    How do you people not follow whats going on for heavens sake!! UGGYHHHHHHH.

    Ok, granted I saw matrix reloaded 3 times in 4 days, but still. Ok im gonna help ya'll out.

    1.) Agent Smith has always been around since the 1st of 6 cycles. Listen to things he says "Its happening just like before" is an exact quote after neo flys away from the meeting place talking about what to do -- wait for message from oracle or not..

    2.) The guy laying in the bed next to neo at the end is indeed agent smith. How is it possible? Etc. etc. Its already been established that effects in the matrix are carried over to the real world via your mind actually believes it. That explains how physical activities hurt you in real world. Agent smith COPIES himself into the guy near the begginning of the movie and gets sucked back into reality which is too possible as in the matrix the code represents conciousness. It was explained in matrix one that when an agent takes over a body the host dies becuase the conciousness is replaced with agent program.

    3.) THEY ARE IN THE REAL WORLD at the end. Your asking then how can he control the sentinals? THINK BACK IN THE MOVIE when neo has his one on one chat with smith. Smith said "Something of you copied into me..." which explains how smith has become "freed" and has new copying ability. SEVERAL SEVERAL parts of the movie smith says "we are connected" to neo. and they are. So the solution is obvious, Neo has control over the sentinals THROUGH the SMITH agent in REALITY which is connected to the matrix. Its very abstract, but it works out. This also leads to a resolution possibility. The only difference between this 6th matrix and the ones before it is SMITHS freedom, which will in the end lead to zions salvation and the end of the matrix.
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  5. #20
    Xei
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    >>Neo has control over the sentinals THROUGH the SMITH agent in REALITY which is connected to the matrix

    That is a possibility, but... that would mean that the Matrix could somehow sense Neo's thought process of some kind(through brain waves or something), which wouldn't make sense in the reality 'realm'. Also, now that an instance of the Smith program is in a human in the real 'realm' then he should also not be able to communicate with The Matrix without being connected to it(if he could then why would they bother connecting people physically to the matrix?)
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  6. #21
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    Re: UGHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Originally posted by dbgt goten
    3.) THEY ARE IN THE REAL WORLD at the end. Your asking then how can he control the sentinals? THINK BACK IN THE MOVIE when neo has his one on one chat with smith. Smith said "Something of you copied into me..." which explains how smith has become "freed" and has new copying ability. SEVERAL SEVERAL parts of the movie smith says "we are connected" to neo. and they are. So the solution is obvious, Neo has control over the sentinals THROUGH the SMITH agent in REALITY which is connected to the matrix. Its very abstract, but it works out. This also leads to a resolution possibility. The only difference between this 6th matrix and the ones before it is SMITHS freedom, which will in the end lead to zions salvation and the end of the matrix.

    Hmmm, I like that. I wasn't really sure how them being connected had to do with the movie. Makes sense to me

  7. #22
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    Re: UGHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Originally posted by dbgt goten
    It was explained in matrix one that when an agent takes over a body the host dies becuase the conciousness is replaced with agent program.

    THEY ARE IN THE REAL WORLD at the end.
    I am starting to think the things you're saying are correct... After extensive analysis and deep thought, I feel there truly is only one matrix.

    About the quotes above, a) it was not explained that a person dies once an agent enters their body; if you really think so, please quote the line because it never happened b) as I said, I think they are in the real world at the end, but your explanation may not be the complete answer as to why; after they "shared" each other's code in part one Neo has been in and out of the matrix perhaps a hundred times, but it is only at the end of Reloaded that "something's different" and he "can feel them." While your reason sounds plausible it does not explain why all of a sudden things changed. It's got to have something to do with the specific events that happened before that last jack out, I'd wager...

    Xei:
    The architect told Neo to pick 23 people from the matrix to repopulate Zion, not 23 people from Zion. Just as the Architect said, the cycle has happened 5 times before, it happened with the One that Morpheus told Neo about in part one. That One freed the first 23 people from the matrix and then he died and those 23 went on to make babies and free other minds for years and years until Neo was found so he can start the process over again.

    It is very hard to figure out just by listening to the Architect's fast "big word" talk in the movie. What helped me was reading the transcript of their conversation. I'll paste it here in case anyone else is interested:
    The Architect - Hello, Neo.

    Neo - Who are you?

    The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You
    have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain
    irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you
    will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may
    not realize it is also irrelevant.

    Neo - Why am I here?

    The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to
    the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my
    sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of
    mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not
    unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably,
    here.

    Neo - You haven't answered my question.

    The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

    *The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Others? What others? How
    many? Answer me!*

    The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of
    one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

    *Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Five versions? Three?
    I've been lied too. This is bull$$$$.

    Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

    The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic,
    creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

    *Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: You can't
    control me! $$$$ you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

    Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

    *The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

    The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art,
    flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its
    doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every
    human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the
    varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have
    since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or
    perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled
    upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the
    human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

    Neo - The Oracle.

    The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly
    99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even
    if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer
    functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory
    systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that
    refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating
    probability of disaster.

    Neo - This is about Zion.

    The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living
    inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

    Neo - Bull$$$$.

    *The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: Bull$$$$!

    The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured,
    this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient
    at it.

    *Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

    The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a
    temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which
    you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild
    Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing
    everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will
    ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

    Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

    The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the
    relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of
    every human being in this world.

    *The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all
    over the matrix appear on the monitors*

    The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by
    design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a
    profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While
    the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific.
    Vis-a-vis, love.

    *Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

    Neo - Trinity.

    The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

    Neo - No!

    The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental
    flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There
    are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The
    door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you
    adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do,
    don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the
    onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is
    already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is
    nothing that you can do to stop it.

    *Neo walks to the door on his left*

    The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the
    source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

    Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

    The Architect - We won't.

  8. #23
    mov.w #$1337,D0 Jeremy G's Avatar
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    Re: Re: UGHGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

    Originally posted by LuckY
    Neo has been in and out of the matrix perhaps a hundred times, but it is only at the end of Reloaded that "something's different" and he "can feel them." While your reason sounds plausible it does not explain why all of a sudden things changed. It's got to have something to do with the specific events that happened before that last jack out, I'd wager...
    Smith hadnt escaped the matrix yet. Infact he doesnt escape until the nebercanezzer (SP) docs to recharge--the oracle finaly gets word to the crew that stayed behind, and during their leaving of the matrix, SMITH inserts himself into the body. Then neo hops into the matrix to speek with the oracle and fights the smith scene (where neo almost gets replaced by smiths copy process). He comes out of the matrix just after that scene but theres no mention of feeling the sentinals. Scince Morpheus experianced the same copy process but doesnt not (or is not shown to) posses the new power i assume that has nothing to do with it. I surmise the Power to control the sentinals only comes directly after smith escapes into reality--but isnt recognized due to lack of proximaty. Afterall, as soon as neo speeks with the oracle nothing is slow moving, things start picking up in pace so I dont he spent much time in real world after the battle with smith, he probably jacked in not long after.

    It was brought up in a post how could neo control sentinals through smith through the matrix -- if that were possible they wouldnt need to jack in. Your right. I cant explain that. But I am sure that neos control has explicitly to do with his connection to smith.
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  9. #24
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    Here is some more food for thought. I'd like to know your opinion about this: On the freeway, the agents said that the rebels were unimportant and that the exile (the Keymaker) was the important one. Now the Keymaker was integral to the path of The One making his way to meet with the Architect and possibly enter the Source. Had the agents acquired and deleted the Keymaker, Neo would never had made it to the bright door. Right? That in mind, if the Architect did in fact want The One to get to him so that they could reload the matrix after wiping out Zion, why would he allow the agents to attempt to delete the Keymaker? The Architect told Neo that the function of The One was to enter the source and have his code disseminated. How could this possibly be true if he allowed the agents to try to destroy the only possible means of The One to ever reach the source?

  10. #25
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    the agents weren't trying to delete him... only the dead programs... they don't want to be completely deleted either... they have free reign in the matrix as long as it's alive because they weren't properly deleted...
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  11. #26
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    Originally posted by major_small
    the agents weren't trying to delete him...
    I beg to differ. After Morpheus fell onto Niobe's car and the agent had the Keymaker alone, he actually said verbatim, "You are meant for one more thing: deletion." I'm sure you recall...

  12. #27
    mov.w #$1337,D0 Jeremy G's Avatar
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    Its all about playing the part. To keep things from seeming suspicious it must be seen that they system doesnt want the key maker in the humans hands.
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  13. #28
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    I don't buy that. The only way that would be true would be if they knew exactly what was going to happen next at all times. How were they to know that Morpheus would be able to come back up on the truck to save the key maker at the last second, or that Neo would be able to fly in and save them a split second before the trucks exploded? If these things didn't happen would they suddenly contrive some reason to not kill the keymaker themselves? I agree with you Lucky, it doesn't make sense and I fear that to make the movie exciting they are just going to gloss over that point since after all it would be a boring movie if the main characters are never in danger.

    Also, another part that confuses me is this: why did the architect seemingly goad Neo into picking the wrong door? Why even show him two doors, why not just one? Why tell him that Trinity was about to die? He seems to want him to pick the door which will destroy the matrix.

  14. #29
    Registered User major_small's Avatar
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    Originally posted by LuckY
    I beg to differ. After Morpheus fell onto Niobe's car and the agent had the Keymaker alone, he actually said verbatim, "You are meant for one more thing: deletion." I'm sure you recall...
    now i remember that... but that wasn't an agent... that was mr. smith...
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  15. #30
    Magically delicious LuckY's Avatar
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    Originally posted by major_small
    now i remember that... but that wasn't an agent... that was mr. smith...
    I think it's time for you to go see the movie again, major. That was an agent. One of the two that were on the freeway chasing the exile. First they were in a police car and last they were in opposing big rigs aiming for each other.
    Also, another part that confuses me is this: why did the architect seemingly goad Neo into picking the wrong door? Why even show him two doors, why not just one? Why tell him that Trinity was about to die? He seems to want him to pick the door which will destroy the matrix.
    I know exactly what you mean... This is the same conclusion I have come to. I believe that it is exactly what the Architect did with the last five Ones. Saying, "Hey I really want you to go over here, but if you want to go over there, go ahead because we're willing to accept a certain standard of life," is beyond ridiculous when you're thinking about it logically. They did all kinds of research on humans and expected The One to just say, "Eh, I'm not even going to try to fight and I'm not going to save the woman I love. I'll just go kill everyone like you want." Puh-lease. My theory states that if he had gone into the door leading to the source, perhaps he would have been able to take "control" of the matrix or something of that sort. If the Oracle is in fact helping the humans, then her saying that the path of The One ends at the source could have been correct.

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