View Poll Results: Math of WAR: How much?

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  • USA gained more than they lost

    17 60.71%
  • USA lost more than they gained

    11 39.29%

What USA lost and gain from the WAR against Iraq?

This is a discussion on What USA lost and gain from the WAR against Iraq? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; "We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes" The toppling of Saddam ...

  1. #46
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes"

    The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.

    More people hate the US now and with greater conviction than before, that means in all likelyhood more people will sign up to be terrorists.

    "is their mandated poverty and oppression that breedz these terrorists from the hate that these regimes are so eager to deflect from themselves and onto the US"

    Iraq was not a fundamentalist Islamic state and does not appear to have many connections with the terrorism that the West so fears.

    "The gainz we've made are immeasurable as we may never know what we have prevented by denying these regimes their breeding groundz for US hatred and these ppl can focus on bettering their own futures for once."

    They are immeasurable and they may well be negative. Fundamentalist states (Iraq was not one) are breeding grounds for US hatred, but then so are non-fundamentalist states like Pakistan, its not the state that matters, its the people. And attacking Islam, which is what the US is percieved to be doing by the 3rd world Muslims, is exactly what people like Bin Laden need to swell their ranks.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-12-2003 at 09:33 AM.

  2. #47
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    > In communism everyone has a job -- that job being spying on your neighbors for the
    > state. It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a
    > lack of money.

    So money makes you happy? I wonder if money makes happy, I think it leads in more cases to unhappiness than happiness.

    The problem is, I think, the distribution of wealth. A few people are extremely rich, in ex-communistic countries usually those who had a high function in the government or who had a big company loyal to the communistic party, but most people were and are still poor. After the eastern European countries were freed of their dictators, they couldn't benefit from it. I think the western European countries should have done more for the eastern European countries. Give more support, less laws, trading rules and that kind of things which make it so hard for the eastern European countries to develop themselves and work together with western European countries.

    It is not the problem that the eastern European people don't have money. The problem is dat we in the western world don't accept people having no money. We keep them away, but should support them.

    > This lack of money can be solved and it doesn't require the loss of freedoms,
    > socialism, nor communism.

    How?

    > For those who don't participate in their democracy to keep it a democracy, they will
    > find themselves in the same position as I think Zimbabwee or some other country I
    > read about Maldova or some country... this is where they had 1 vote 1 time and
    > elected a dictator who promised socialist/communist benefits at the cost of freedoms
    > and authoritative rule.

    The situation in almost all, what we in the western world called, communistic countries was and is that they are not really communistic. The problem is that most of those countries have a dictator leading the country.

    >> We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these
    >> types of regimes
    >
    > The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will
    > increase it.

    Yes, I also think it will not prevent terrorism. Saddam Hussein was leader of a country, people like Osama Bin Laden are leaders of international networks which you can't fight the way you would do with a country. The US has shown it can topple the regime of a country quite easily, so those who want to fight they US will organise them more and more in international networks and operate from there. The world has still not shown to be able to fight terrorism, so I think more people who want to fight will enter terroristic organisations.

  3. #48
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    >>The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.

    >>More people hate the US now and with greater conviction than before, that means in all likelyhood more people will sign up to be terrorists.


    Where have these ppl been since 9/11 -- their feelings have never changed... I am willing to BET MONEY that u are wrong... u should read about those from jordan, syria, and sudan who came to iraq to fight a jihad against the US - their dream - they lost big and those who survived are actually begging the iraqi populace for money to GO HOME... In fact much of their anger has been deflected to their own mullaz who sent them with the promise of victory -- read about the same situation of the paki's who survived and walked home from afghanistan.

    Osama Bin Laden said in a speech "America is very much weaker than the Russians"... it was a delusion that he believed and was tested when he got his ass whipped just like these jihad fighters -- the ppl who committed 9/11 were well todo suadi's who traveled the world before coming to the US to commit their act. The poor ppl of repressed countries and now the free ppl of iraq will not be signing up for bin laden's cuase as they have much more important things to concentrate on...

    In point of fact for those who don't know, "Al-queda" means "The Base" and some are in fact arguing that this Base is really a name for a Database of names of former fighters in the afghanistan war against the soviets, an "international network" -- if u dissect the missions that Bin Laden has ordered and carried out all have been led by the ppl on this list of ppl who fought against the soviets -- today a large number of those ppl are dead or imprisoned in the US or elsewhere -- and the others are on the run being pursued by the US. The ppl who carry out the 9/11's of the world are few and far between and most come from places of unchecked militancy -- like Indonesia or Phillipines is where the next attackers will probably come from. Doing nothing is what breedz these terrorists.
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  4. #49
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    as for the numbers of deaths, i still bet america has losed to many, especialy since we always seem to get involvd when a country like france gets its a$$ kicked(vietnam).

    Did you know that for many years the United States refused to pay their UN dues on account that they were not treated fairly by the UN?
    well we are one of the founders, were probally reserved this right to begin with, if not its all building and we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?

    The toppling of Saddam Hussein will not prevent future terrorism, if anything it will increase it.
    yeah, killing many members and scaring everyone that might of inlisted means more terrorists..........

  5. #50
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    well we are one of the founders, were probally reserved this right to begin with, if not its all building and we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?

    Yes, because they are not addicted to it. And since when does founding something give a person the sole right to do whatever they want? and by the way, the US does not run the show in the UN-France, Russia, China, America, and the UK have permanent membership on the UN Security Council giving them the ability to veto the United States. I know that many people believe that the US runs the world (obviously many members on this Board do), but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system.

    edit:

    >>as for the numbers of deaths, i still bet america has losed to many, especialy since we always seem to get involvd when a country like france gets its a$$ kicked(vietnam).

    As for France being beaten in vietnam, I seem to recall another 'western nation' suffering 66,000 casualties and not accomplishing anything for these losses...who could it be?
    Last edited by Xei; 05-12-2003 at 05:33 PM.
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    but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system

    first of all in trhe us we learn nothing american, after all itrs always our falut for everything. plus how doesnt the us run the show? were the only real superpower. we develop it, they make it. they agree to the rules, we follow them and do something when there broken. look at what happened to the league of nations, it craped out because we werent there. some countries just cant(money,location current problems like revolts) other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).

    the whole world isnt ant-us, but at times it seems like a big sized chunk.

  7. #52
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    Originally posted by mart_man00
    but I wont blame you completely due to the poor quality of your propogandist education system

    first of all in trhe us we learn nothing american, after all itrs always our falut for everything. plus how doesnt the us run the show? were the only real superpower. we develop it, they make it. they agree to the rules, we follow them and do something when there broken. look at what happened to the league of nations, it craped out because we werent there. some countries just cant(money,location current problems like revolts) other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).

    the whole world isnt ant-us, but at times it seems like a big sized chunk.
    The US used to be Isolationist, remember WW1 and WW2? You didn't become involved until you were directly attacked.
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  8. #53
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    Originally posted by mart_man00



    yeah, killing many members and scaring everyone that might of inlisted means more terrorists..........

    Killing people, who arent terrorists in the first place only makes them hate you and wish to become terrorists, haven't you noticed how most of the terrorists on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, which happens to be somewhat of a protectorate of the United States. Kinda odd don't you think, that terrorists might come from a place where the fundamentalist government uses America to become rich and America does likewise, both disregarding the wishes of the people. Instilling fear in the people does not make them wish to be more like you, they will despise you, they will hate you. As a result of the American blunders in the Mideast they have been the "Victims" (or possibly not victims, since after all it is a form of retaliation against american absolutism) of several terrorist attacks. It goes with the saying, "If you play with fire, you're going to get burnt", America has been burnt now after their poor Mid-East foreign policy.

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    yeah, america always goes out of its way to make sure we kill as many civilians as humanly possibly. its our policy...........

    if we take out 10 terrorists in a camp and kill 1 innocent janitor we did our job. no war will ever have no vivilain casualties, people need to realize it. we try to avoid it, better than most. even if we only have a minority of the people on our side atleast progress was made and we dont have to worry about them.

    yes, fear could give them motovation or it could just make them stay home and dont blow anything up, would you prefer a tea party instead?

  10. #55
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    other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).
    I can remember exactly one time the US saved a german ass, that was Berlin Blockade/Airlift. I cannot remember a single case the US helped any african country... maybe you can enlight us here.

    especially since they [france] wish to become a dominant power in europe.
    I know it's hard to believe from your point of view, but Europe is not founded on dominance but on cooperation. And it wil hopefully stay this way.
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  11. #56
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    >>a bunch of basicly hillbillies with aks are angry, atleat the guy that could be a handfull and could do some real damge to us is gone. it will take a while but people will learn, atleast nothing can happen to us .
    >>how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
    not 3rd world countries.
    >>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.
    >>we are the super power. would you prefer people that never saw electricity in their lives run the show?

    mart_man00, you are an ignorant racist.

    Specifically you believe that US money and might makes right. No matter who it harms.

    Its Americans with attitudes like yours that give US travelers a bad name.
    I hope you are just a teenage boy and have time to grow up. (males aged between 14 -> 18 are the most intolerant of any demographic)

    >> well we are one of the founders,
    Just one of 26 signatory members.

    >>were probally reserved this right to begin with
    No the US did not. It is only recently (under Rumsfelt) that the US foreign policy has gone to the extremes like The Hague Invasion Act (to avoid the International Criminal Court).

    >> other are just cowards that had there a$$es saved by us so many times(france, germany, what at times seems to be the entire continent of africa).

    This is just incorrect. It shows your total ignorance.

    >>the whole world isnt ant-us, but at times it seems like a big sized chunk.

    And has no rational reason to try and kill US citizens, has it?

    WHY DO YOU THINK THE TERRORISTS TARGET THE US?

    This is the message your current administration is sending the world. On the leaked memo of the NSA spying on UN members to blackmail them into voting for a war in Iraq;

    “To these countries the memo is just the latest example of the Bush Administration's disdain for their concerns. To them, the fact that the US is spying on their diplomats instead of talking with them is proof that the United States does not take them seriously.”
    http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story...910360,00.html
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  12. #57
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    >>I cannot remember a single case the US helped any african country... maybe you can enlight us here.


    Liberia, Ethiopia, Somalia... maybe I should continue to list more -- I'm sure you'll be surprised of who exactly is on the payroll of the US - ie. there is a massive amount of money set aside just for that nation each and every budget year-- it includes almost every african nation with exception of a few -- Somalia as you may note is no longer on that list and the situation there is not that great but it doesn't discount that we have helped or tried to at least -- European nations like germany and france are so cash strapped or maybe I don't know the REAL reasons of why they don't do much at all to help these nations.

    >>but Europe is not founded on dominance but on cooperation

    Ohh, is that why France is leading a new competitor to NATO of which germany has signed on, more than a competitor - it's meant to be a replacement??? Almost all of the COOPERATIVE military projects between France, Germany, and Brittain have fallen behind and gone way over budget as France and Germany are both reluctant to come up with the funds to pay -- to live up to their commitments -- in this respect they have much more in common with russia -- and guess what France, Germany, and Russia have just got together to discuss this new alliance they are forming. Cooperation INDEED... at the expense of their old allies and friends especially Brittain.

    >>(to avoid the International Criminal Court).

    Hahaha, we'll never be a part of this BOGUS and useless court -- during the iraq2 war and even before the ICC has been besieged by thousands of petitions to charge the US, it's president(Bush), and the soldierz and commanderz with war crimes and other politically motivated charges -- all by the communist/anarchist/socialist/eurotard dumbSh$$$. That's exactly the reason given as to why we don't belong to this ICC as the court will be used to weild a political axe against america and americans. It seems that our predictions are so far correct.

    >>As a result of the American blunders in the Mideast they have been the "Victims" (or possibly not victims, since after all it is a form of retaliation against american absolutism) of several terrorist attacks. It goes with the saying, "If you play with fire, you're going to get burnt", America has been burnt now after their poor Mid-East foreign policy.

    You are right, our blunderz are to blame, since we are the only country with any kind of effective policy in the mid-east. The rest of europe, unfortunately including brittain were kicked out or pulled out of that region years and years ago. I can totally agree that it was a huge blunder for us to go into suadi arabia and liberate kuwait from saddam. Seriously, the only blunder we made was leaving our enemies with a sense that if u bloody our nose a bit we'll give up - like in somalia...

    I always laugh when I hear "poor Mid-East foreign policy", the ppl who say this don't even know what they are talking about -- if u asked them to define what american foreign policy is and what about it is bad they can't say... Maybe it's our support for a government so we can have good relations with them -- I guess that's our blunder -- well we're adjusting and from now on it's a military first policy -- we'll kick some ass first and ask questions later.
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  13. #58
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    Agriculture is the biggest industry in Sub Sahara Africa (contributing on average 30% of GDP) and is severely damaged by US and European subsidies and trade barriers. These US farm subsidies alone amount to $300million per year.

    >>since we are the only country with any kind of effective policy in the mid-east.
    Yes, give Israel huge quantities of guns.

    This year US aid to the whole of Africa is less than $600m (down by $178m this year). In contrast US sent nearly $4 billion to Israel.

    You didn’t mention Angola (oil), Nicaragua (overthrew the government, ran drugs) or Congo (diamonds).


    Liberia:
    After Liberia declared war on Germany in WW1 (its major trading partner) the US moved in. The US set up bases and supported Liberia because this helped its anti communist ideals.
    Then as the US automobile industry took off, rubber was needed, Firestone moved in.

    “The result was an agreement, supported by the U.S. government, that clearly disadvantaged Liberia: Firestone would lease one million acres for 99 years at the annual rate of $0.06 per acre; any gold, diamonds, or other minerals discovered on the land would belong to Firestone; and Liberia would accept a $5 million loan from Firestone for a 40-year period with which to settle all outstanding foreign loans, in effect taking on new debt to pay off old debt. The company made huge profits and enriched some of the Liberian elite, thus ensuring their support for the venture.”

    >>during the iraq2 war and even before the ICC has been besieged by thousands of petitions to charge the US<<
    So the US, the world’s policeman is above International Criminal Law?

    The US is pretty happy to use these agreements for its own purpose then dump them when they don’t suit.
    Look at Rumsfelt complaining that Iraq violated the Geneva Convention (showing POW’s on TV). No mention of the US violations of the Geneva Convention in Camp X-Ray.
    Has the US let those children go yet? Has it charged them yet? Given them basic human rights?
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  14. #59
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    mart_man00, you are an ignorant racist.
    i knew this was coming, i was just waiting for it.

    money doesnt matter, but when people with no money, house that are below tents and people that have probaly never seen electricty or anything made in that last centuries try to get involved it not right. while canadas money is droping, atleast they make something, not in chickens.

    No the US did not. It is only recently (under Rumsfelt) that the US foreign policy has gone to the extremes like The Hague Invasion Act (to avoid the International Criminal Court).
    o yeah we broke so many laws. we just helped everything and everyone.

    This is just incorrect. It shows your total ignorance.
    look at how many wars the us ha been in and how many actually involved us?

    And has no rational reason to try and kill US citizens, has it?
    we only give huge amounts of money to them and send our military there (not canadas monkey and connoe military either). we only been trying to police the world forever now, even though we are the only one that will and the obly one that never seems to get any support when we need it.
    "we can count on the frnech we they need us" - i wish i knew how that was now. it good for a couple of countries.

    WHY DO YOU THINK THE TERRORISTS TARGET THE US?
    hmm....only superpower left. if 9/11 was before the USSR went under it might of been them since there closer.

    ill finish this later, its getting long.

  15. #60
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    Where have these ppl been since 9/11 -- their feelings have never changed...
    Where have they been? In their homes, living their lives. Their feelings haven't changed? The [neutral] reports i've read, and the muslims i've spoken to indicate the opposite.

    Prior to 9/11 despite the Israel-Palestine conflict there was a certain amount of pro-Western feelings among many of the youth of the Middle-East, BUT post 9/11 US actions and rhetoric have been interpretted by many as AN ATTACK ON ISLAM, the implications of that interpretation cannot be stressed enough.

    I am willing to BET MONEY that u are wrong... u should read about those from jordan, syria, and sudan who came to iraq to fight a jihad against the US - their dream - they lost big and those who survived are actually begging the iraqi populace for money to GO HOME...
    I would take that bet, how much do you actually understand of the mindset involved here? How many muslims have you actually spoken to?

    Plenty of people came to fight jihad against the US, why do you think that is? The whole point of jihad (in this context) is fighting a holy war against the attackers of Islam.

    Sure they lost, you think that's going to stop more signing up?

    In fact much of their anger has been deflected to their own mullaz who sent them with the promise of victory -- read about the same situation of the paki's who survived and walked home from afghanistan
    If by "much" then you mean "a little" then i would agree.

    the ppl who committed 9/11 were well todo suadi's who traveled the world before coming to the US to commit their act. The poor ppl of repressed countries and now the free ppl of iraq will not be signing up for bin laden's cuase as they have much more important things to concentrate on... "
    Are you honestly trying to say that poor people are less likely to become terrorists than rich people!?

    Poor people with a low quality of life have relatively little to lose and are also far more likely to be extremist, "Remove some of the cursed enemy, aid your people and your religion and you get an instant trip to Nirvana", that's pretty damn enticing if you have a .......... life.

    You think the suicide bombers in Palestine are rich? You think the people who came over to fight Jihad against the US in Iraq and in Afghanistan were rich (no, they weren't terrorists but they illustrate that there are plenty of poor people out there willing to risk their lives fighting the US).

    today a large number of those ppl are dead or imprisoned in the US or elsewhere -- and the others are on the run being pursued by the US. The ppl who carry out the 9/11's of the world are few and far between and most come from places of unchecked militancy -- like Indonesia or Phillipines is where the next attackers will probably come from. Doing nothing is what breedz these terrorists.
    Continuing the staus quo might well breed terrorists, but then that's not doing 'nothing', that's doing a whole lot of things that ........ off the muslim community.

    The more indiscriminant force used in retaliation against fundamentalist terrorists, the more people sign up to the terrorist cause, the more the terrorism escalates: look at the last 50 years in Israel, has force worked there?

    Now having said all that, I believe that whether or not the US will gain from the invasion of Iraq is far from clear, whilst i certainly do not believe it will decrease the number of terrorists or 'would-be' terrorists out there, it 'may' have prevented terrorist organisations getting hold of the technology required to carry out the most devastating attacks.

    And if it precipitates a serious attempt by the US to solve the Palestine-Israel conflict it could have a large postive effect on the anti-US feelings in the Middle East.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-13-2003 at 11:30 AM.

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