View Poll Results: Math of WAR: How much?

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  • USA gained more than they lost

    17 60.71%
  • USA lost more than they gained

    11 39.29%

What USA lost and gain from the WAR against Iraq?

This is a discussion on What USA lost and gain from the WAR against Iraq? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; n_h, people with alot of weapons and a history often turn out to be alright. he wantes to have us ...

  1. #31
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    n_h, people with alot of weapons and a history often turn out to be alright. he wantes to have us killed, has weapons that can kill small(still a few thousand still counts) ammount and will have huge amounts, if its not us it will be some one. then we will get blamed for when hussien nukes france and we did nothing(i forget who said this, "we can count on the french to be there when they need us").

    that our way of life is the best and that everyone should be subjected to it.
    thats just plan bull. by that there should still be slavery and still be nazis. i sure slave owners hated the north and loved free labor, it was so cheap, so productive. democracy isnt perfect(remember us americans have a republic), but its the best humans have come up with.

    thanks WanTeD, that kind of stuff is rarely said.

  2. #32
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    >>How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President.

    We are a representative democracy - a TRUE democracy would be the most cumbersome and awful thing you could ever imagine. It's true that Bush did not get the most votes technically - but he won the most states and that's how our system works... if it worked any other way why would any polotician care to court the votes of the states in the center of the country??? most of the population is along the coasts -- we could completly ignore the plight and votes of those in the farmlandz.

    We have a BILL OF RIGHTS to protect indivuals and minority groups from the will of the majority -- the majority is not always right.
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  3. #33
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    Originally posted by OneStiffRod
    >>How can a country democratize another country, though the country itself is no real democracy, a democratic country in which a man who doesn't get the most votes gets President.

    Even A democratic country cannot democratize another country. I had a list somewhere of some not-democratic countries that were conquered by the US in order to free their people from their ruling dictators in the last 30 years or so, well only few and very few of them have a peacful life with a democratic system.

    Well the truth is that if the people don't move a finger to fight their unfair system, even if that system disappears, the people have lived their lives under that dictatoship, not knowing or fearing to express their true opinions, will prefer to stay that way instead of the 'unknown' democracy.

  4. #34
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    > I can understand the Americans who say, US is the only country, all the others are
    > $$$$ ... .
    >
    > I can understand this because about 60-70 years ago, it was the same situation in
    > Germany, where I'm from.

    How can you understand? I can't, my country was one of those taken by the nazi's those days. Many people here, especially those who survived WW2, wouldn't understand, they would wonder how it comes the world hasn't learned from WW2.

    > Maybe you will understand what war is like, when you feel bombs falling on your head.

    I agree, I think it makes a big difference if you're from a country which has experienced to be taken or not. It does influence a country's thinking about war and peace. Last week we had the 5th of May celebrations, the day our country was freed from the nazi's. Each year this day people here think about war and peace and other things going on in this world.

    > democracy isnt perfect(remember us americans have a republic), but its the best
    > humans have come up with.

    One of the best. Another good thing is solidairity.

    > Even A democratic country cannot democratize another country.

    No country can democratize other countries. A country can only democratize itself, other countries can only try to create conditions in which a democracy can grow.

    If I were president of a country and I would tell people from an other country how to behave, would I be a dictator then?

    > will prefer to stay that way instead of the 'unknown' democracy.

    I think that is correct.

    A lot of people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy with the new system, they say it was better in the old Sovjet-system. In the western part of Europe, people are amazed about that, but they just saw the Sovjet-system from the outside and learned about it from western newspapers and other media. Just to give an example, Gorbachov is a respected man here in the west, but from people from Armenia and Azerbeidjan living here in my city I know they hate them, he killed many people in their countries, including their families, why they fled many years ago to western Europe. In the western newspapers people usually read that Gorbachov was trying to make the USSR more democratic.

    One of the reasons why people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy is that the new system came to fast and led to chaos in their country. It does take many generations before a country has learned to live with a new system and can use a different system to take advantage of it, if that is possible.

    The same will be in Iraq. The US nor the UN we able to democratize Iraq. They will maybe only be able to create conditions in which a democracy could grow, but also that will take many generations.

  5. #35
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    Little story,

    I have a book called 'Inside Espionage' which is an autobiography of a former operative in the CIA. In the book he gives many stories of various people he's met in his years as a spy. One of those accounts is of 2 russians who defected to America spilling the beans about some aspect of the KGB. The US government gave them a house, a car, a salary forever more etc. After 2 years, one of them gave it all up and went back to The Soviet Union, in full knowledge that he would be thrown in prison for life or would simply 'disappear'. Living under our system and not being told how to behave 24 hours a day was simply too much for him and he would rather spend his life in jail.

    Seems very strange doesn't it? I can't understand that way of thinking as I guess most here couldn't. Which is why the idea of the west imposing a way of life on others is doomed to end in disaster.

  6. #36
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    yeah, he would rether spend his life in jail. he couldnt possibly of felt guilty for betraying what was his country for the longest time or missing family. democracy is evil.


    maybe it we are pushing it to fast, it did take us a while for our half-$ssed one.

  7. #37
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    America are constantly throwing their weight (being the fattest country in the world, they have a lot of it) around. It won't do them any favours in the future. They already have the hatred of the entire middle east, and anybody that says America attacked Iraq to free the people is full of $$$$. America attacked Iraq because their oil was too expensive and they wanted a discount.

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    >>A lot of people from eastern Europe say they are unhappy with the new system, they say it was better in the old Sovjet-system.

    Ohh yes, I completly understand this, the old soviet saying "We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us."

    In communism everyone has a job -- that job being spying on your neighbors for the state.

    It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a lack of money. This is something that is a problem everywhere -- and guess what, in socialist & communist countries this problem is only growing and prevalent compared to capatilist democracies. This lack of money can be solved and it doesn't require the loss of freedoms, socialism, nor communism.

    It's true that democracy can only exist when the ppl support and involve themselves in it... it cannot be imposed with success... this is a weakness but also an admirable quality that a true democracy can't be imposed.

    For those who don't participate in their democracy to keep it a democracy, they will find themselves in the same position as I think Zimbabwee or some other country I read about Maldova or some country... this is where they had 1 vote 1 time and elected a dictator who promised socialist/communist benefits at the cost of freedoms and authoritative rule.
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  9. #39
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    "It's all about money, and the reason for ppl's unhappiness everywhere is a lack of money"

    Right so there's no such thing as an unhappy millionaire? What nonsense, psychological studies have shown many times that contrary to popular belief wealth is not the be all and end all in terms of happiness, in fact in many instances the correlation is a poor one.

    "This is something that is a problem everywhere -- and guess what, in socialist & communist countries this problem is only growing and prevalent compared to capatilist democracies"

    Can you please give an example of a "socialist" country.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-10-2003 at 02:02 PM.

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by WanTeD
    Well most arab muslims hate the USA that's for sure. I know that cuz i see that in my country everyday (Lebanon); They always try to blow up the McDonalds/Burgur Kings and other american restaurants. I know that most of you don't undestand this, but most of the muslim arab world can't survive without dictatorship. I mean they hide behind their fake democracy, but the truth is that most arab countries are ruled by dictators. Take syria for exemple, just after the death of the president, his son was elected by 99.9%. Same thing happens in Egypt,Lybia...A president getting elected by a 99.9% majority isn't a demopcracy. That was makes the arab muslim hate the USA so much, they haven't experienced democracy by any means. Oh another thing, don't get fooled by the arab demonstration against the US that you see on TV, you must understand that most of the arab muslim persons will support whoever is in power, they don't support an opinion, they don't support a plan to develop their countries...they just support the man who is in power. I can giveyou an exemple: In my country, politicians are all morons and don't have a clue about how to play a real role in politics, they just rip the country, increase taxes...and people usually demostrates against them and their new rules..but when elections are due...PUFF PUFF GIVE...same people are elected(or their sons). Same family names are still in power here since the second wolrd war. Anywayz, the conclusion is that whoever doesn't experience any political democracy will unconsciously hate the US when western presidents start talking about the arab world and its democracy.
    Sorry that I'm late, but thank you very much. I have been wanting to know the opinion of the arab world. Ignorance is what leads to these problems and I hope that some day, the world will be a different place.

  11. #41
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    2) It's now much easier for us to say "go **** yourself" to those countries who showed their true anti-US colors.

    What countries, exactly, are you saying are anti-US? I don't want to start an arguement, but I am curious. The first thing that came to my mind would've been the countries who refused to take part in the war, which wouldn't make them anti-US.


    >>we should just drop from the un and be done wit it, perminate alliances never work. just like giving every one a say doesnt work. how many of the countries objecting/complainging have any right to? half of the people a make a couple of chickens a year! its a war of the civilazations,
    not 3rd world countries.


    Just because something hasn't worked so well doesn't mean to give up. The principals of the UN are respectable. I think it should stay. How many of the countries objecting have a right to argue? O...M...G

    >>its the truth, what have other countried ever done for us? what have we done for them? what have we tried to do for them? what have they tried to do for us?

    If you are conveying that the U.S. does everything in their power to help the world and that noone in the world gives back, then I disagree with your comment. I hate it when I hear people $$$$$ at how much the U.S. gives to the world, I like my american neighbors, but I cannot stand it when I hear that people think that the world owes them something.

    >>after all we are the only country in the world that has to pay the bill or have are men killed.

    You're full of $$$$. You arn't the only ones who have had your soldiers killed, in somalia pakistan saved you. In Cyprus Canadian soldiers died as well. In Korea thousands of Canadians, British, and other nations soldiers died. Did you know that for many years the United States refused to pay their UN dues on account that they were not treated fairly by the UN? Would you call this footing the bill? Stop acting like the US is picked on.


    >>1) We got a re-assertion of our dominance...

    I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.
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  12. #42
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    >>I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.

    I am saying that, just look around u dude....

    >>What countries, exactly, are you saying are anti-US? I don't want to start an arguement, but I am curious. The first thing that came to my mind would've been the countries who refused to take part in the war, which wouldn't make them anti-US.

    I'm mainly talking about france and germany... France will be "removed" from all future decisions in NATO, and Germany, it's almost a done deal, will lose most of the NATO bases inside germany as the US is now planning to move them to our new friends in the former soviet republics. These decisions may not seem like much but for germany I think it's close to 1billion in revenue is generated from these NATO bases and I don't even think that accounts for the economies built around servicing these bases in the civilian areas. For France, losing all influence and say concerning NATO actions is certainly costly -- especially since they wish to become a dominant power in europe.
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  13. #43
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    Originally posted by Xei
    I hope your not saying that you think the US has world dominance.
    The United States is by far one of the most powerful nations in the world. However, we should use our might for right, not might for might.

  14. #44
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    Ok lets cut the story & intelect short .its simple.

    We have a desolute nation under a dictator who oversee
    and controls over what they do, wear, see, hear, say, think, believe, eat(believe me its true in some country 50 lashes for
    eating pork by a moslem),,,,,,,,,.

    Now you are a democratic power. what are your choices.

    A__Have relations&trade with this bastd for profit. & thus legitimize his rule and ignore the wishes & dreams& suffering
    of millions of its citizens.

    Or

    B__Ignore the dictator

    or

    C__Go in . demolish his tyranny & free its slaves . and force
    feed its public with some basic rights .so they wont fall prey
    to the next dictator that may come shopping.and as an added
    bonus win some commercial contract for yourself.

    United State chose option C. that was the most humane
    decision coming from a so called imperialist power.
    it is absolutley irrelevant as why (israeli pressure, oil, trade
    , arms lobby ,,,,,,) she did it.

    US by virtue of its actions alone in afghanistan/iraq has gained
    the respect & admirations of millions over millions of hopeless freedom fighters around the globe.(including in my birth country
    iran. which majority %90 are battling the regime rule through
    student& youth daily demostration, thousands in jails& more
    joining the political prisoners death row .).after bush,s threat
    to mullahs, the youth have a new idol. he is called GW Bush.)

    I am by no means a republican fan.and used to laugh at the
    idiotic choice that the americans made for president(bush).

    but We should judge ppl based on the merit of their action and not by their slogans.pre war bush was a joke icon.
    look who is laughing now. he gained the respect of the
    average citizen(not the idiot extremists you see on tv in some parts of the middle east)
    (i still dont like cheney though)

    try living under dictatorship for a year and pretty soon you
    find that bush looks more & more like a cute angel of mercy.

    those democratic countries pimping for dictators should change their ways or stay the hell out of the way of those nations
    who look up to the so called "fat nation" for moral support.

  15. #45
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    >>US by virtue of its actions alone in afghanistan/iraq has gained
    the respect & admirations of millions over millions of hopeless freedom fighters around the globe.(including in my birth country
    iran. which majority %90 are battling the regime rule through
    student& youth daily demostration, thousands in jails& more
    joining the political prisoners death row

    Right after the Taliban fell in afghanistan a reporter from ABC - I think from 20/20 - went to iran to just interview ppl. He walked around the streetz and talked to ppl in iran about how they felt about the US, and about their own govt.....

    He was guarded with his questions to protect the ppl but all the youth said they want to have better relations with america and don't agree with the restrictive rulez of the mullaz -- and surprisingly some of them came up to him and when they felt there were no spies or minders around said openly that they wanted to see the same thing that america did for afghanistan in iran -- namely that 90% of the ppl would support an uprising backed by american air power and military support to overthrow the mullaz and retake their country.

    -- I beleive this to be well after bush made his "axis of evil" speech but well before iraq2. I'm sure the feelings have shifted a bit as the iraq issue has stirred up alot of emotions -- but I think those types of issues don't change and the US is making the right decisions by intervening and lifting the oppresive veil from that region.

    -- We are doing more to prevent future terrorism and terrorists by overthrowing these types of regimes... it is their mandated poverty and oppression that breedz these terrorists from the hate that these regimes are so eager to deflect from themselves and onto the US. The gainz we've made are immeasurable as we may never know what we have prevented by denying these regimes their breeding groundz for US hatred and these ppl can focus on bettering their own futures for once.
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