US attack in Iraq (WAR Talk)

This is a discussion on US attack in Iraq (WAR Talk) within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally posted by FillYourBrain zahid, I know english is not your first language so I'm not attacking you here but ...

  1. #271
    Registered User zahid's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FillYourBrain
    zahid, I know english is not your first language so I'm not attacking you here but I have no idea what you just said. Is there any way you could run through that and clean it up a bit?
    You haven't yet applied your common sense. See almost every post is edited. If you were the administrator, you could see, how many times. That's the drive for perfection in every aspects.

    >>no, I've been asking for facts for quite some time now. So far nothing has come from you.

    You are not working hard, actually not working at all. Pay little attention, don't you see that facts already placed. Please first read what I write. Than answer. Didn't I tell you to study earlier. Do you want me to increase the size of the texts? Did you notice the fact about my country? I haven't see any comments on that.
    I guess, if there is only one supporter of GWB on this WAR around the world, you will be that person.
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  2. #272
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    I am siding with Fill on this one. I don't see how people can know so much about so many things without actually having any reliable proof (this is where the education part comes in) to back it up.

    EDIT:

    I have read your past posts Zahid (especially the one after this statement by fill:
    see, this is what I'm saying. people who criticise the US of stealing oil always give opinionated editorials as evidence. I have not seen one shred of evidence to just how they are doing it. We purchase, yes. but can that be a crime? a reason to hate? You have yet to give one shred of evidence. You have yet to do anything but say "open your eyes" and "be educated". I challenge you. educate me. show me where the US has EVER stolen oil.
    )
    and every statement you make is pure bs speculation. I think fill is right on with wanting some evidence/proof. Educate the damn man. He's open minded to fair arguments.
    Last edited by Silvercord; 04-28-2003 at 08:29 AM.

  3. #273
    Registered User zahid's Avatar
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    For Silvercord:
    Originally posted by FillYourBrain
    US has stolen oil
    LOL .. .. LOL
    Lets investigate, "Who posted that phrase?"
    [ Never code before desk work ]
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  4. #274
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    Is that proof to some aspect of any of the arguments going on, or is it more meaningless speculation and hearsay?

    EDIT: propaganda. That's the word I was looking for! All of your posts are propaganda Zahid. Look it up.
    Last edited by Silvercord; 04-28-2003 at 08:42 AM.

  5. #275
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    one of my favorite quotes but I don't know who said it:
    Never argue with an idiot. First they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience
    thanks for the effort silvercord but I think he may just be hopeless

    Edit: the quote is from Mark Twain apparently
    Last edited by FillYourBrain; 04-28-2003 at 08:48 AM.
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  6. #276
    Registered User SAMSAM's Avatar
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    US cost to stay in Iraq for the next 2 years(minimum);

    $240 Billion

    Iraq Yearly revenue from oil;

    $15 Billion



    Any average math brain would tell you that "this is the dumbest

    investment that a country would make for oil"

    That means if US for the next 18 years pump oil from Iraq
    (for themselves exclusively), they merely ballance the loss.

    with this cost included.
    that means that the price of each barrel of oil that US takes from
    Iraq would be $350 compare to reg price of $25.
    then why should they go through this crapy road when they
    can for fraction of the cost produce oil from gulf of mexico
    (the cost for each barrel of oil in gulf of mexico is $21
    which is considered economicaly not profitable).

    or better yet attack Mexico.Its cheaper



    So oil cant be the motive.
    other motives ?may be. but thats out of the scope of this thread.

  7. #277
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    SAMSAM, you're right about the cost outweighing the benefit. This was also the case with the sanctions. If we really wanted the oil, we could have lifted the sanctions on Saddam. But I don't want to get our side into the business of speculating about motives either. if all facts are acquired and laid out on the table, you can sort through them and see how foolish the oil argument is. But rhetoric must be thrown away.
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  8. #278
    Registered User zahid's Avatar
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    What we are talking about ?? We are talking about "US attack in Iraq",

    Q. Is that a good thing?
    My Answer: No
    Q. What is the reason of this attack?
    My Answer: Main reason is not for the freedom of Iraqi people. Even not for the WMD.

    So, why is that attack, there could be lots of reason. What are they? I started to believe, Oil is a reason. If you don't agree with me, don't. Follow the future. And may be Israel has influence on it too.

    Who invented that Steal in this thread? Now Fill is sticked with that world. This is a nature of few people. We have explained few facts, which convince us (give us hints to the people against the WAR to find the reason) on act of evil (I don't want to use that words, I would use misuse, inappropriate, illegal, not moral) works by US gov.


    Future will let us be more clear on the issue.
    Last edited by zahid; 04-28-2003 at 09:02 AM.
    [ Never code before desk work ]
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    =------------------------------------------------------= - I may be wrong.

  9. #279
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    zahid, I agree that the reason for the war was not WMD or liberation.

    the reason was in 91 after we removed Saddam from Kuwait, Iraq signed an agreement that he would follow certain protocol to end the war. When he failed to live up to his end of the bargain he in effect re-started the war.

    edit:
    the above can be seen as speculation as well. It is my feeling however. Based on the end to the first war being conditional it seems like a valid reason to return to war. You have to remember that Saddam was the invader.

    But it is an additional theory that you did not mention in your post.
    Last edited by FillYourBrain; 04-28-2003 at 09:44 AM.
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  10. #280
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    That works for me FIB. We could speculate endlessly about oil and protecting israel and liberating the iraqi people and getting back at a country for 9/11 and all of that other fun stuff, but it's just that: speculation. Bush said it was to get rid of WMD, and unless we can factually prove otherwise that must stand.

  11. #281
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    So muct to comment on, try to keep it short.

    Lets start with SAMSAM's post. And the 'facts' he uses. Please post a link to the data you used as I find it totally incorrect.

    >>Iraq Yearly revenue from oil;

    $15 Billion<<

    I work out if Iraq returns to pre Desert Storm level of 3.5 mill barrels per day at todays price of $25 per barrel comes to $32 billion, now add the natural gas.
    Not to mention the huge untapped oil and gas reserves ready to be developed or the low cost of production.

    This surplus is the real prize. The problem is that OPEC can cut production and so raise the price (as it has done in the past). Contoling this surpls negates this threat, but FIB will say I am speculating.

    How can you put a price on it when Rumsfelt refuses to?

    "Pentagon officials have said privately that a war and its immediate aftermath could cost between $60 billion and $100 billion. "
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...war-cost_x.htm

    How much will be paid back? (as Iraq now pays 25% of its oil for food revenue in fines for Desert Storm)
    How much will be earned in rebuilding contracts?

    Who is speculating now?


    >>Nope, it's called the government not interfering with business, as it should be.

    So allowing a corporation to supply arms to one side of a conflict while the CIA 'advises' the other side is good bussiness practice?
    Allowing oil companies to pillage other countries is OK as long as the US gets cheap oil?

    >>We do not govern them.
    But you supply them with arms and training. Your politicians are elected using their funds. Your govenment supports the dictator most willing to sign an oil contract and supply campaign funds, irregardless of their humanitarian record.

    What of social responsibility?
    What of environmental protection?

    The US does not care. But then it does about the Iraqiis all of a sudden. Why?

    from your second link, did you read this?

    "Chevron has neglected us. They have neglected us for a long time. For example, any time spills occur, they don't do proper clean up or pay compensation. Our roofs are destroyed by their chemicals. No good drinking water in our rivers. Our fishes are killed on a daily basis by their chemicals, even the fishes we catch in our rivers, they smell of crude oil. Chevron know the right thing to do, they intimidate us with soldiers, police, navy and tell us that cases of spill are caused by us. We are tired of complaining; even the Nigerian government and their Chevron have treated us like slaves."

    What would happen if to Chevron if it did this in the US?

    http://www.moles.org/ProjectUndergro..._06/diary.html

    Have a look at this about the US and French involvment in Angola. The oil corps send in arms in return for oil contracts.

    "In addition to the French oil giant Total-Fina-Elf, oil companies like Chevron, Texaco, Philipps Petroleum, Exxon Mobil, and BP-Amoco -- all with close links to Bush and his White House oil team -- were heavily involved in propping up dos Santos in return for profitable off-shore oil concessions."

    During Regan's terms, the US (thru the CIA) supports the Savimbi rebels. Savimbi is 'the George Washington' of Africa.
    In Bush's term, as the rebels and their finanacers put $100,000's into GWB's campaign funds, this changed and Savimbi is assasinated.

    "Bush did host dos Santos at the White House shortly after the killing of Savimbi. The timing of this meeting raises serious questions about the transfer of money to Bush's campaign coffers and its impact on changing the Republican Party's long-held policy of support for Savimbi."

    That is they supported a known corrupt regime for oil profits.
    Is that oil theft?

    http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=2576

    Or on oil comp. using outdated technology or methods that would not be allowed in the US. Will the oil corporation clean up afterwards?

    http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsst...2002/story.htm


    >>This remains to be seen but has little to do with the Oil discussion. Or have you run out of examples?

    As you say remains to be seen.
    But my point was;
    if not for the masses of WMD Iraq was going to unleash on the world but appears not to actually have, what was the war for (it not oil)?

    FIB: Please don't speculate about me or my motives until you have the facts on me. (that you think I hate the US )

    Prahaps you should look at 'Sunlight oil fields' in Timor. Is it as big as injustice as Angola or Nigeria ect?
    I would be the first to agree.
    Last edited by novacain; 04-28-2003 at 09:46 PM.
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  12. #282
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    >>Iraq signed an agreement that he would follow certain protocol to end the war. When he failed to live up to his end of the bargain he in effect re-started the war.


    On this topic could you post a link to the UN resolution that allowed the UK and US to establish the 'no fly' zones.

    >>Based on the end to the first war being conditional it seems like a valid reason to return to war. You have to remember that Saddam was the invader.<<

    Why did he invade?
    Because the Kuwaitis were pumping excessive oil from the field shared by Kuwait and Iraq in violation of the treaties. The Kuwaitis refused to stop at a conference on the matter and so Iraq, bolstered by US, UK, French and Russian arms invaded. The Iraq invasion of Kuwait cost around 2000 lives.

    The Kuwaits then spent 16million on a US PR firm. They falsely claimed that the Iraqiis had kill babies in the hospitals. GWB quoted this false report repeatedly to get congress to comit troops.
    Why did Sadam have all these arms?
    Because the West decided SH was better than the government of Iran. They did not want Iran to win the war.
    Iran was winning but Iraq was supplied with advanced arms on credit (ie Stingers SH used to attack Iranian oil tankers), so ensuring that Iraq won the Iraq/Iran war.

    Since Desert Storm 25% of all Iraqii oil sold has gone to pay back the Kuwaitiis ect for the damage done during war.
    "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered."
    George Best

    "If you are going through hell....keep going."
    Winston Churchill

  13. #283
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    novacain. I am aware that the link I posted has some opinion in it. I was interested in the data/facts. I don't care even remotely about what one character in the country says. As to the CIA advising the country, be more specific and provide proof. CIA telling the country how to oppress it's people using oil? get real. Chevron's actions causing polution? blame the country without environmental restrictions. Chevron is an international company based in the US. It's not a tool of the US gov as much as you would have people believe that. I love also that your examples are still editorials and opinions. And if your insinuating that GWB had something to do with the Savimbi assassination then let's start playing the X-files theme song shall we?

    As for SAMSAM's post. you aren't the first to say it was speculation.
    FIB: Please don't speculate about me or my motives until you have the facts on me. (that you think I hate the US )
    Didn't I believe I only directed that at Zahid. And he's admitted to hating the US gov.
    On this topic could you post a link to the UN resolution that allowed the UK and US to establish the 'no fly' zones.
    Iraq was the conquered nation. That's how things work see? (I know that'll set you off) *blows novacain a kiss*
    Why did he invade?
    Because the Kuwaitis were pumping excessive oil from the field shared by Kuwait and Iraq in violation of the treaties. The Kuwaitis refused to stop at a conference on the matter and so Iraq, bolstered by US, UK, French and Russian arms invaded. The Iraq invasion of Kuwait cost around 2000 lives.
    This was a UN mission there chief. Take it up with them.
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  14. #284
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    ....but we're getting off the path.

    The actual incidents that we have so far that make the US so terrible and point to oil as a motive are as follows:

    1. Angola
    The US along with Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg and Spain buy oil from what is apparently a corrupt government

    2. Nigeria
    The US along with Western Europe and Asia buy oil from what is apparently a corrupt government

    3. Timor?
    A search on Google doesn't turn up anything on "Sunlight oil fields" Perhaps you could enlighten us

    so far I don't see a heck of a lot that could lead me to believe ANYTHING in Iraq. Seems not to relate at all to be honest with you. I'm wondering what it is that you think the US plans to do with the oil of Iraq. Perhaps I just need more facts right? sure....

    ...please continue
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  15. #285
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    novacain:
    (ie Stingers SH used to attack Iranian oil tankers), so ensuring that Iraq won the Iraq/Iran war.
    In essence correct.but you got the wrong weapon.stinger
    is a shoulder fired surface to air missile.wont damage big ships.
    it was the french anti ship missile(i forgot the name)carried
    by mirage jet.the same that argentinians used against UK
    navy.

    the war was a draw.

    novacain:
    Why did he invade?
    Because the Kuwaitis were pumping excessive oil from the field shared by Kuwait and Iraq in violation of the treaties. The Kuwaitis refused to stop at a conference on the matter and so Iraq, bolstered by US, UK, French and Russian arms invaded. The Iraq invasion of Kuwait cost around 2000 lives
    Saddam attacked kuwait partley because ,he was looking
    for a excuse not to pay the $50 billion that it received from
    kuwait during the war with Iran.and he always thought of
    kuwait as part of greater Iraq.

    US motives compare to what is going to happen to Iraq
    is of less important.Bush team has no clue as how to
    handle the mullahs.

    Iraqis should be vigilante.the mullahs in iraq are
    busy organising & misleading the uneducated, naive
    masses.Due to Saddam dictatorship there is no democratic
    institutions (parties, unions, commities)in Iraq.
    The only organized institution left is the mosques.and mullahs
    are certaily using it(using it as their party HQ) to their best benefit.They work the best under disguise.like this;

    proclaim self rightiousness for your class(mullahs).
    Meaning:"if you criticise a mullah. you are criticizing GOD"
    mislead the masses(poor, helpless, uneducated).
    organise the masses.
    rule the masses.

    We will wait and see.
    solution in my opinion as what US should do:
    Feed, Educate, Respect, create jobs, rebuild hospitals.

    other solution:

    Find saddam. apologize to him & ask him to come back.
    then take your troops out & attack North korea.
    There are no mullahs there. they only have nukes.

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