What employers want: Article

This is a discussion on What employers want: Article within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Very, very interesting article. Worth the read, and i would love to hear opinions on the comment that: "Three people ...

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    RoD
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    What employers want: Article

    Very, very interesting article. Worth the read, and i would love to hear opinions on the comment that:

    "Three people added that they would consider C++ experience as a negative, given the common practice of using C++ as a non-OO language. "

    Because i disagree, yes many don't use oop, hell i don't even really get that yet, but i still feel c++ is highly superior to a few of the languages they hire for.

    http://educators.mainfunction.com/Re...=employerswant
    Last edited by RoD; 01-15-2003 at 10:44 AM.

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    From the article:

    Finally, I intend to tell students that different firms have radically different corporate cultures and needs, and that it is good to interview with several firms, if possible, before selecting a first job.
    This is a good tip. A lot of companies state in their job-advertisings for starter-functions that a candidate requires to have a few years of working experience and requires knowledge and experience with a lot of languages and technology. In fact it often turns out that even when you have no working experience, because you just left university, and know a few of the most used languages, they accept that.

    Those three people who consider C++ experience as a negative do probably have bad experiences with it. Probably because they have met C programmers who started C++, a lot of C programmers keep using their C-style of programming.

    I see this at a company with which we are working together. They have a lot of C programmers who changed to C++. They still use C standard library functions and use the class mechanism in a poor way. This is mainly because it seems to be very hard to change your way of thinking when you have programmed for years with a certain paradigma.

    If C++ is superior to the other languages is a different question, but a fact is that C++, because of its hybrid character, has the possibility to use it in a non-OO way. Languages like Java or Smalltalk don't offer that possibility and force a programmer to use OO only.

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    Code Monkey Davros's Avatar
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    Found this interesting also.

    "Coding skills were, at best, an incidental concern for most of those interviewed: e.g., "The least important skill [for those who join my firm] is knowing how to produce a piece of code."

    Sounds like what many companies actually want are maketing people who can program.


    Also:

    "One observed that this emphasis on formal methods is far more common in Europe than America."

    I think this is true, although none of the companies I've worked for actually implement any formal methods. They just say that they do, so it gives them 'a thin vaneer' of quality. Most of the firms I have worked for followed the JFDI (just friggin* do it) principal.

    * subsitute a more appropriate word here

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    RoD
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    Yea thats why i believe in being generalized more so then specialized, i mean its ok to be a c++ god, but u gotta know more then that.

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    UNBANNED OneStiffRod's Avatar
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    I feel that this Article is way outta date, 1998 was like a different era.

    Today, I know most ppl from my college who have gotten their BSCS are still working in intern positions if at all, others are system admins or the like. Companies are not hiring the ppl they are training as interns - I think coding skills are being much more desired today than when the article was written. The positions that they are filling are all Senior positions, requiring extensive experience - I've heard of a backlash against College graduates who are not being able to perform up to the requirements, such as a lack of skills or experience.

    I'll be graduating soon, so I gotta get some PROJECTS under my belt since that is the only thing that seems to count - today it seems that the BS degree aint worth S***.
    My Avatar says: "Stay in School"

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    cereal killer dP munky's Avatar
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    i love how employers are like yeah were looking for someone w/5-8 years of experience, so the people comming out of school get left out to dry because they dont have and "real world" experience. how is someone w/no experience supposed to get experience just to get a job....i dont want to have to come out of school and do volunteer bs stuff until someone thinks highly enough of me. does anyone else see what im saying?

    GRRRRRRR
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    Originally posted by dP munky
    i love how employers are like yeah were looking for someone w/5-8 years of experience, so the people comming out of school get left out to dry because they dont have and "real world" experience. how is someone w/no experience supposed to get experience just to get a job....i dont want to have to come out of school and do volunteer bs stuff until someone thinks highly enough of me. does anyone else see what im saying?

    GRRRRRRR
    One word, internship. Look around and you can find one that is paid. You can do this through YOUR school and get course credit for it. Talk to administration. Also if they like what you are doing for them they will probably just hire you after you graduate.

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    Funniest man in this seat minesweeper's Avatar
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    To be honest I never really look too much into 'candidate requirements'. I always think of it as selling a motor. When you advertise it, you whack on an extra few hundred quid cos you know that the other guy will try and knock some money off regardless of the stated price. I think companies do the same, they say 'candidate must be able to program Win32 to the standard of Charles Petzold' but they know they will end up with a list of guys fresh out of uni.

    Another thing, I am in my final year of uni now and last year I went on a work placement with a consultancy. There were 2 jobs and 6 of us going, me and my housemate Pete were 2 of them. The HR muppet in the interview starts banging on with the usual 'we are a top league organisation who only accept best in class....yadda yadda'. Anyway, me and Pete are average 2:1 category students, work hard and play hard and all that. 2 of the other guys were from our course and are like 1st class - work your butt off all night - kind of students. Me and Pete got the jobs, so all Mr Human Resources' waffle was nothing but rubbish.

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    UNBANNED OneStiffRod's Avatar
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    I agree that the most important thing, is to get your foot in the door - after that the requirements seem to be lax.

    But it seems that only the small companies are offering positions to interns or college graduates, so I guess my strategy will be to find someplace and GROW with it.
    My Avatar says: "Stay in School"

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    Just one more wrong move. -KEN-'s Avatar
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    >> Probably because they have met C programmers who started C++, a lot of C programmers keep using their C-style of programming.
    I see this at a company with which we are working together. They have a lot of C programmers who changed to C++. They still use C standard library functions and use the class mechanism in a poor way. This is mainly because it seems to be very hard to change your way of thinking when you have programmed for years with a certain paradigma.<<

    Guilty as charged

    It's annoying to think of the state of the CS/IT industry. There are so many businesses and firms and whatnot, all wanting to fill positions, and all seemingly expecting unrealistic requirements. I'm worried because I love to program, and I think I'd like to make a job out of it, but I don't want to be stuck without a place to start. Sure, there are tons of openings - but to someone out of college, 99% are just out of reach.

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    RoD
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    I guess i should be glad that i never programmed in c huh?

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    In The Light
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    howdy,
    as an employer dealing with mostly engineering types and tradesmen
    "real" experience—experience beyond what college ordinarily provides
    this is right on.
    i find engineering student straight out of school are way way to idealistic, it takes about a year to get them to understand the difference between uni concepts and real world application.

    M.R.
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    No, I know you were joking. My point still stands.

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    Refugee face_master's Avatar
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    Itld, wouldn't that apply to most jobs?

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    In The Light
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    howdy,
    well imo people coming out of "Trade Schools" like welders, machinists, pipefitters and the like seem to be a bit better prepared to function in thier respective fields than those folks coming out of universities.
    i imagine that is due in part to the absolute nature of trades vs the more free thinking world of engineering.

    M.R.
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    No, I know you were joking. My point still stands.

  15. #15
    Terrance11
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    Hello, I'd like to say that I'm taking a corporate c++ training course designed to help people make it out in the real world as programmers, plus I have two+ years experience in the business industry, so I have a good idea about what employers want.

    "Coding skills were, at best, an incidental concern for most of those interviewed: e.g., "The least important skill [for those who join my firm] is knowing how to produce a piece of code."

    You're right, they want marketers who can program in other words.

    Companies look for the most confident, most secure people at any position, whether it's as a programmer, or as a CEO.

    Companies are willing to teach intelligent individuals by paying for them to take training courses, or having them supervised by senior level programmers.

    Did you know that technical interviews at Microsoft (for programming positions) don't consist of any technical questions at all? Instead, they ask you solve small little puzzles, that have nothing to do with programming.

    They do this, because they want to know how well you think on the run, which is one of the most important aspects of being a successful programmer.

    Also this article claims that most cs students coming out of college are too confident in their skills.

    This is true again. My teacher has stressed time and time again that most cs students coming out of college simply don't have the experience to be good coders. A lot of cs students know how to write small algorithms that they were taught. But when it comes to full scale production in Windows programming (which is the most desired skill set in the programming industry), a lot of students have very minimal skills in that area, forcing them to learn on the job.

    Also, one of the most important aspects of being a successful programmer in a business enviroment is based on how well you can code within a team.

    All large projects you write in the real world will be within a team enviroment. If you're not good in working within a team structure, or you're too anti-social, you won't make it.

    The real world is far different from college.

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