Sun win over Microsoft

This is a discussion on Sun win over Microsoft within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally posted by Shiro > It is not only with companies, it happens a lot when people are more succesfull ...

  1. #16
    Registered User zahid's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Shiro
    >
    It is not only with companies, it happens a lot when people are more succesfull in something than others.

    Imagine a school, where there is some boy very popular by the girls. A situation which is quite usual at schools. Then you have generally three types of other boys. The first type are those who also want to be popular and are always with the popular boy and behave like him. The second type are those who are feared, angry or something like that and always want to attack him and talk about him in a negative way. And the third type are those who keep distance and who don't care if the popular boy exists or doesn't. They just ignore him.

    The second type of people are often the same who say they hate MS. This kind of behaviour is caused by the too dominant behaviour of the popular boy. If someone in a group behaves dominant, than others will behave less dominant or even the opposite of dominant. If someone gets too dominant and then behaves aggressive, then others will try to resist the dominant person and react aggressive.

    This example of group dynamics is what happens with MS. MS is dominant and has a quite aggressive way of marketing. Some people like MS, others don't care about it, but the group you hear most is the group reacting aggressively when they hear or read the word Microsoft.

    So I think it is just a part of being human.
    Nice analysis with example.. made it easy to understand.
    [ Never code before desk work ]
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  2. #17
    Just a Member ammar's Avatar
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    So....
    Why don't they force other companies to include the .NET framework in there operating systems...
    none...

  3. #18
    Terrance11
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    Originally posted by TravisS
    Microsoft != monopoly.

    The big part of a monopoly prevention is to protect the users. If we as users only have one choice, we must continue along with whatever the creator of that product does. If they charge $100 for a candy bar because they are the only makers of candy bars, then that is a monopoly that must be broken up to protect the consumer.

    The thing here is this: there is a choice. Are you going to deny that? Are you going to say MS and Windows is the ONLY possibility? No. Apple, *nix, etc... Windows and MS became what it is because of the consumer. Would you sit your 80 year old grandpa down in front of a Linux machine and try to teach him how to use it? Well, good luck. Now, how about a windows machine? It will still take some time, but I'm willing to be he'll catch on much faster. Windows and MS became a "monopoly" because the consumer prefered it's software.

    Now, as for Sun. Why should MS include Sun's software? I think it's nice enough that even Java 1.x is included (kinda). What is stopping the user who needs the updated java from going to Sun's website and downloading for free the new Java virtual machine? Nothing... In fact, right now I am using version 1.4.1_01 that I downloaded. Once again for free.
    It's not Microsofts fault that Sun is losing profits, it's Sun's fault. Should MS be forced to include a copy of Linux with every version of Windows just to keep it "fair"? Think about that.

    TravisS, I don't by any means disagree with you, but you seem to have more of a text book understanding of what a "monopoly" is! Like I said earlier, technically MS doesn't have a monopoly, but in a business sense they do!

    The big part of monopoly prevention is to allow fair practices in the business industy AND to protect the users.

    Judges and courts see the "Microsoft Monopoly" the same way you see it. Because users do have the choice of turning to macs and *nix operating systems, legally they can't shut down MS.

    But again, in a "business sense" MS does have a monopoly. MS uses extremely unfair business practices that allows them to corner the market. Until something is done, and MS is partially broken up, very few computer companies have the ability to succeed in the industry like they should.

    Is it fair that companies like Oracle and Sun can release a product, then have the idea stolen from MS, and watch MS take over that sector of the market??? It really isn't, and that's why so many companies are going so far to break up MS.

    Intel technically has more of monopoly than MS, but they trying to take over the computer industry like MS is.

    MS is using their dominance in the o.s. market to try to take over the computer industry, so in a "business sense" they pretty much are a monopoly.

    I just wanted to clear up on my earlier post.

  4. #19
    Terrance11
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    Originally posted by Terrance11


    Intel technically has more of monopoly than MS, but they trying to take over the computer industry like MS is.


    Intel technically has more of monopoly than MS, but they aren't trying to take over the computer industry like MS is.


    can't edit the post as a guest.

  5. #20
    the hat of redundancy hat nvoigt's Avatar
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    Microsoft probably is a monopoly. I still don't understand why they have to integrate Java. Any user can get Java if s/he needs it so badly for free. No restrictions.

    If my next program requires QuarkMood XL 3.7 preinstalled, why the heck should Microsoft be forced to include it in their operating system ? Because they are a monopoly ? Because I would like their product to be this way ? Ridiculous. At the moment, Microsoft's own product isn't even part of the installation procedure. Why include a competitor ?

    Java is not essential for an operating system.
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  6. #21
    Registered User TravisS's Avatar
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    Not only is it not essential for an OS, it's not even essential for a web browser. I downloaded Opera as a Java free browser, and have had no issues as of yet. In fact I went for probably a solid month with the java-free version of internet exlorer provided with XP before the little pop-up box came asking me if I wanted to install the java virual machine.



    Oh, and yes, my example does outline the "textbook" version of a monopoly. In the business world, MS definately holds a monopoly. To be a software devolper, even a major one such as Sun and Oracle, if very tough. The outcoming product must be VERY good for the people to take it over the more common MS brand. Same with goes with processors. Most people will buy Intel because of their massives of advertisements etc... over AMD despite the cheaper costs and more power-per-cycle Athlons. It's just the way people do things

  7. #22
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    >MS uses extremely unfair business practices that allows them to
    >corner the market.

    Yes, but maybe this is the way to be succesfull in bussiness in the modern world.

    >Is it fair that companies like Oracle and Sun can release a
    >product, then have the idea stolen from MS, and watch MS take
    >over that sector of the market???

    I agree, it isn't fair, but on the other hand, maybe Oracle and Sun should have protected their products better. Also, if Oracle and Sun release a product and MS copies it and takes over that market, then one could wonder how they do this. Is it because of their more aggressive marketing, their product being better?

    Anyway, I think if Oracle and Sun had the bussiness people of MS, they would have kept their market. So I wonder why those bussiness people don't behave like MS bussiness people do, maybe that would be the way to get parts of MS its markets. It will probably bad for their reputation, but it seems they have to choose. Being aggressive and succesfull or not aggressive and not successfull.

  8. #23
    Terrance11
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    Originally posted by Shiro
    >MS uses extremely unfair business practices that allows them to
    >corner the market.

    Yes, but maybe this is the way to be succesfull in bussiness in the modern world.

    >Is it fair that companies like Oracle and Sun can release a
    >product, then have the idea stolen from MS, and watch MS take
    >over that sector of the market???

    I agree, it isn't fair, but on the other hand, maybe Oracle and Sun should have protected their products better. Also, if Oracle and Sun release a product and MS copies it and takes over that market, then one could wonder how they do this. Is it because of their more aggressive marketing, their product being better?

    Anyway, I think if Oracle and Sun had the bussiness people of MS, they would have kept their market. So I wonder why those bussiness people don't behave like MS bussiness people do, maybe that would be the way to get parts of MS its markets. It will probably bad for their reputation, but it seems they have to choose. Being aggressive and succesfull or not aggressive and not successfull.
    Originally posted by Shiro
    >I agree, it isn't fair, but on the other hand, maybe Oracle and Sun should have protected their products better. Also, if Oracle and Sun release a product and MS copies it and takes over that market, then one could wonder how they do this. Is it because of their more aggressive marketing, their product being better?
    So when Sun released Java, they should have protected it better?

    Microsoft originally released j++ as a java compatible compiler exclusively for the windows o.s.

    Sun sued, lost, and MS got angry and released c#, as well as their future product j#. MS's attempt to rid java on their o.s. was another attempt for one of their own products to swipe the market.

    Having dominance in the o.s. market can allow you to do such things, which is unfair, but not necessarily illegal.

    Oracle was the largest database software company in the world. Oracle works off of sql, I don't know much about sql, but I'm pretty sure that Oracle didn't invent, nor does it own sql.

    Microsoft had Access, a poor database system, but then it released sql server to compete with Oracle. SQL server and oracle are now neck and neck at the top, maybe sql server owns more of the market. I'm not familiar with the business of databases.

    How could oracle protect themselves better???

    As far as releasing better products, that's exactly what MS does. They have more money, they can hire better developers. MS plays by the rules legally, but they're business practices are unfair, and make it though for other companies to compete with them.



    Originally posted by Shiro
    >Anyway, I think if Oracle and Sun had the bussiness people of MS, they would have kept their market. So I wonder why those bussiness people don't behave like MS bussiness people do, maybe that would be the way to get parts of MS its markets. It will probably bad for their reputation, but it seems they have to choose. Being aggressive and succesfull or not aggressive and not successfull.
    Because Oracle and Sun don't have the money that MS does. Remember the borland masters??? Microsoft hired them to develop MFC, so they could take over the c++ compiler market.

    MS doesn't necessarily have better business people, they have more money to invest in their employers, and their employers ideas.

    So... there's no way of saying that other companies should just try harder, or think differently. MS has in every sense "a business monopoly."

    That's why so many computer companies and people are trying to break MS up. They're trying to take over the computer industry, and have the money to succeed!

    Again, I'm not disagreeing with you Shiro. MS is at the top because they're the strongest and smartest tech company in the world.

    But they're using their dominance to create a monopoly. MS is so powerful, it's difficult for any other company to survive, let alone compete.

    It's not just about thinking differently, or working harder. If it was that easy, MS wouldn't be at the top right now.

  9. #24
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    >So when Sun released Java, they should have protected it
    >better?

    You were talking about stealing. If Sun didn't want MS to be able to steal their product, the Java language and Java environment, then you should have made it private or something so that other companies can not make environments for the Java language. This would make Sun monopolist, they didn't.

    I think it is good they released Java the way they did. Also MS has not taken over the Java market, MS is trying to create alternatives to Sun's Java language and environment, which in my opinion is fine. That is competition, the situation as it should be.

    >(..) but then it released sql server to compete with Oracle. (..)
    >How could oracle protect themselves better???

    I also don't know a lot of the database market, but if I read what you write, then you say that MS won the competition with Oracle. In my opinion this is not stealing. It would be stealing if Oracle alone had the rights to develop SQL products and MS created a SQL product. In that situation Oracle would be monopolist.

    So in my opinion this, the situation of MS, is a consequence of the free market where companies have to compete with eachother and some are more succesfull in the competition than others.

    >MS doesn't necessarily have better business people, they have
    >more money to invest in their employers, and their employers
    >ideas.

    I partly agree. I agree that MS doesn't have necessarily better bussiness people, but I don't think MS does invest more mony in their employees. I think they can invest more money in marketing and probably because of their position they can allow themselves to be more aggressive then other companies.

    >It's not just about thinking differently, or working harder. If it
    >was that easy, MS wouldn't be at the top right now.

    Yes, that is true, it isn't easy.

  10. #25
    Terrance11
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    When I said steal, I meant stealing ideas. And I know sql isn't an idea of Oracle, but they MS does steal ideas on a regular basis, look at how they got so big- windows- a stolen idea

    I'm not saying there's anything wrong with MS does, but they are creating a business monopoly. Shiro, you're seeing the MS situation in a different light than I am.

    Part of the reason of monopoly prevention is to allow for fair practices in the business industry. MS (technically) doesn't have a monopoly. But their dominance allows for unfair business practices, as well as the ability to create a monopoly.

    When people say "the microsoft monopoly" they're reffering to their dominance, and their attempt to take over the market. They don't have a "real monopoly."

    But look at it like this, when you play the board game monopoly, and your competitor owns hotels on almost all of the real estate, is that a monopoly in your opinion??? In my opinion it's a monopoly, even if you own Boardwalk

    Anyways, MS's practices isn't allowing other companies to compete like they should, which is unfair business practices.

    The reason why other companies are trying to break MS, rather than Intel (which is more of a monopoly in a technical sense), is because MS is actually trying to create a monopoly, whereas Intel isn't.

    Almost every aspects of computers, even video games, MS is trying to take over the market.

    And it isn't fair due to MS's power, but it is legal (the way they're doing it). And that's why they haven't gotten broken up (yet).

  11. #26
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    >When I said steal, I meant stealing ideas. And I know sql isn't
    >an idea of Oracle, but they MS does steal ideas on a regular
    >basis, look at how they got so big- windows- a stolen idea

    Ideas can be protected using copyrights, patents and that kind of things, but if you do this and your idea is succesfull, then you also have a monopoly. It is also possible to make a few modifications to an idea, or even improve it, so that the new idea differs from the original idea. So protecting ideas is very hard.

    In my opinion it is important to make ideas free instead of protecting them, just look at Bluetooth, if Ericsson kept it by its own, it wouldn't be as succesfull as it currently is. Now it is supported by so many companies, also MS. If ideas and technology is free, then it has the chance to become a widely accepted standard.

    I think most companies use ideas of others to create new ideas.

    >The reason why other companies are trying to break MS, rather
    >than Intel (which is more of a monopoly in a technical sense), is
    >because MS is actually trying to create a monopoly, whereas
    >Intel isn't.

    But doesn't every company want to become a monpolist? I see a lot of companies going together by fusions or working together in associations. Just take a look for example at the automotive bussiness. Volkswagen currently owns Seat, Skoda and a lot more car brands and it is still growing. The same counts for Ford and probably other larger companies.

    And also the company I'm working for is trying to get parts of several markets, just to be able to survive. So taking over markets is in my opinion a way of surviving of companies. And I actually don't mind, as long as my company can survive, I have a job, and I also want to survive.

    MS has a lot of power, I'm really wondering how long they can keep their dominance.

  12. #27
    Terrance11
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    Shiro,
    Companies don't want to become a monopoly, because "real" monopolies are illegal, and will get a company broken up/shut down.

    Microsoft is in a "business sense" a monopoly because their dominance allows for unfair business practices and are allowing them to control the computer industry.

    My analogy of the actual board game monopoly is very similar to what microsoft has. It's like microsoft owns a hotel on virtually every piece of real estate on the board, and every other company is just tyring to roll the dice as carefully as they possibly can, just to survive.

    A few years back when Apple was in danger of going bankrupt, Gates actually funded Apple so they could survive, and so Microsoft wouldn't become a "real monopoly." Back then Apple owned virtually the rest of the o.s. market. Now with linux being such a big player in the o.s. market, it's unlikely that MS will ever become a "real monopoly."

    But Microsoft's power allows them to control and dictate the industry.

    Part of the reason of monopoly prevention is to disallow a particular company to control and dictate a certain business industry.

    MS has the power to take other companies ideas and swipe up the market. Like with Java, they didn't want java to survive, so they originally wanted to make Java incompatible with the Windows o.s. That's part of the reason why the courts decided to have Java included with every windows o.s., which was to disallow this unfair practice. I know that there's no reason why windows should have to have java, but it was more to prevent unfair practices, as well as the fact that the court who made this ruling probably knows nothing about the computer industry as a whole(so they couldn't judge on their own why java should/shouldn't be included with windows o.s. and made the decision based on whatever the lawyers of the case told them... but I'll leave that topic to be discussed elsewhere).

    Anyways, copyrighting an idea isn't as easy as you may think. And Sun could have disallowed any company to release a similar product to java simply by having the language standardized (which they were planning on doing), but MS released C# before Sun was able to get Java standardized, and now C# itself actually got standardized before Java (funny huh?).

    Anyways, there's also certain ideas that you can't copyright. Microsoft plays by the rules legally, and they know what ideas they can and can't steal. Then they go off and steal the ideas that they are allowed to steal.

    Anyways, this type of dictatorship by a single company is why a lot of people refer to Microsoft as a "monopoly" (even though they technically aren't a monopoly). And MS's attempt to take over the computer industry is why so many companies are trying to get MS broken up.

  13. #28
    Banned frenchfry164's Avatar
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    MS isn't holding anyone back to making an OS. If someone else wants to make an OS better than windows, they can make it. Just because MS has the best commercial OS doesn't mean they have a monopoly. A lot of people like it, that's it. If a company wanted to put linux or something else on their comps, they can, nobody's stopping them. MS isn't holding a gun to anyone's head saying "Use windows or die"

  14. #29
    Terrance11
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    Originally posted by frenchfry164
    MS isn't holding anyone back to making an OS. If someone else wants to make an OS better than windows, they can make it. Just because MS has the best commercial OS doesn't mean they have a monopoly. A lot of people like it, that's it. If a company wanted to put linux or something else on their comps, they can, nobody's stopping them. MS isn't holding a gun to anyone's head saying "Use windows or die"
    Frenchfry, and that's why MS is "technically not a monopoly."

    The business world doesn't work the way you think it works. I'm sorry, but I can't explain myself any further, you just have to see both sides of the coin...

  15. #30
    Terrance11
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    One last note, MS hates linux, and many companies are switching over to linux.

    Anyways, you're not understanding how MS's dominance is dictating the tech business industry.

    Please just trust me on this one

    anyways, here's what Ballmer thinks of linux:

    http://www.windows1984.com/topics/ms/cancer.htm

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