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This is a discussion on God within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally posted by Solidarity Meanwhile.. Ive never heard a high status scientist claim Evolution to be 'FACT' (in big letters, ...

  1. #616
    Senior Member joshdick's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Solidarity
    Meanwhile.. Ive never heard a high status scientist claim Evolution to be 'FACT' (in big letters, as you seem to enjoy it)

    Most say its Theory, others just plain hypothesis...
    That just goes to show how little you understand science. When a scientist calls something a theory, that doesn't mean it's just a hypothesis, just a shot in the dark. A scientific theory is the best way that scientists today can explain what they observe. Airplanes fly based on the theory of lift, but that doesn't mean that flight is a myth. Evolution is the best way that scientists, who shouldn't study this issue with preconcieved bias, can explain the world around them.

    It may just be that Im not appealed to the idea of coming from monkeys, that my life has no meaning what so ever and that Im just going to die and completely disappear and thats put a blockade in my mind so that I believe in that there is a God out there willing to let me live past my mortal death and in a sense stay alive...
    I hear this a lot. For many people, religion is a mental crutch for them because they can't face reality. So what if we only get 70 or 80 years on this planet? I plan on getting quite a bit done in that span of time. Evolution doesn't imply that your life is meaningless. Quite the opposite, evolution is one of the backbones to the idea of maintaining biodiversity. That idea states that all organisms are important for all life on earth.

    Either way,
    Id rather die to find out I was wrong and that there is no afterlife (funny way of thinking about since I wouldnt exist) then dying and finding out that Im gonna spend the next amount of thousands of years in torture until I finally get cast into the burning lake and destroyed... :/
    Of all of the philosophical arguments that I have seen to advocate the existence of God, this one is by far the most sound. It's called Pascal's Wager, named after the mathmatician and philosopher who concieved of the idea. He stated that if a person can bet a finite amount (a few decades of service to God) to win an infinite amount (eternity in heaven and not in hell) that person should make that bet. This argument is completely logical and has only one flaw: which religion should one place one's bet on? Many religions are similar insofar as they have a jealous god that requires service to Him and only Him. When Pascal formulated his great idea, he and practically all of Europe was Catholic, so I'm guessing that he never dreamt of a world where there would be many religions that (at least in large part in this country) are tolerated and considered equally. If anyone can tell me the perfect religion and give proof as to why it is such, I would be very appreciative.
    FAQ

    "The computer programmer is a creator of universes for which he alone is responsible. Universes of virtually unlimited complexity can be created in the form of computer programs." -- Joseph Weizenbaum.

    "If you cannot grok the overall structure of a program while taking a shower, you are not ready to code it." -- Richard Pattis.

  2. #617
    Refugee face_master's Avatar
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    Die thread! DIE!!

  3. #618
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Most say its Theory, others just plain hypothesis..."

    EVERYTHING in science is a 'theory', that does not detract from the explanations in any way.

    Within scientific circles evolution is doubted about as much as the theory of heliocentrism, or the germ theory of disease.

    "I had formerly begun to think you were some kind of mean old guy with no reason to be that way, who had probably been fed lies about evolution all his growing up years, and had never even noticed that there was a possibility of thinking for one's self (like alot of people who I have talked to seem to think)"

    ....... you have the NERVE to say that I don't think for myself!? ME? I question EVERYTHING i ever get taught, i'm the one who goes to speak to the lecturer and points out mistakes, errors, bits that don't seem to make sense etc. etc. I NEVER EVER believe anything without thinking about it. Christ, I derive almost all the equation we are given because i want to see where they came from, no-one else bothers.

    You have been HANDED YOUR BELIEFS ON A PLATE, it is hypocrisy in the extreme to tell me i don't think about things.

    Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution, there is no question, no debate within the scientific community, none whatsoever, the only debate is in certain particularly ignorant sections of the public.

    What exactly have I been lied to about? Do you have any idea what the theory evolution involves? Do you understand it? Do you know what evidence there is that supports it? Or are you totally clueless and arguing from a completely ignorant stand-point?

    "The catholic religion is basically all of what you have said against religion in general"

    Oh of course: "Their religion is bad, my religion is good", GEEZ i wonder what the catholics would say..... hmmm....... oh wait, I know: "Their religion is bad, my religion is good".

    "I agree wholehartedly on pretty much all your statements against religion, as long as they are directed towards catholicism."

    They aren't, they are directed towards all religion, i was pointing out problems with the old-testament because Sentaku seems to believe it's 100% truth, which is absurd.

    "But you must see; just because some idiots (namely alot of people whomade up the catholic church) twisted things, doesn't mean that the original was twisted"

    You have had your education so screwed up by religion that you think the Earth is a fraction of its true age. You did see the demolishing of those ridiculous arguments for a young earth right?

    "Without the strict laws the people of israel probably would
    have lost their indentity and faith as most of the pagan religions
    around them"

    Right ok then, so stoning a man to death for picking up sticks HELPED the people did it? Really? BEcause jees, if they hadn't stoned him to death, well the society would clearly have crumbled............ Uh-huh well hell thats plausible...... oh wait no, its not.

    And condoning slavery, that helped the slaves did it? Oh wait it doesn't but who the hell cares about them, as long as the israelites are ok......... yea 'benevolent'.

    or......... not.

    There are so many instances of God being a bastard in the old testament its not even funny, so how on Earth can you claim that he is benevolent?

    You can't, not without abandoning all sanity.
    Last edited by Clyde; 12-14-2002 at 10:42 AM.

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    something

    I don't believe in god, but i believe in an afterlife.

    When you die, you can become any living organism, it's up to you to decide.

    It's much more positive to think about death in that way.
    I abuse:

    Borland C++ Builder 6 Enterprise Edition

  5. #620
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "don't believe in god, but i believe in an afterlife."

    Based on what?

    You don't need it, really, the real world isn't so bad. Instead of hiding from it, embrace it.

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    "The catholic religion is basically all of what you have said against religion in general"

    Oh of course: "Their religion is bad, my religion is good", GEEZ i wonder what the catholics would say..... hmmm....... oh wait, I know: "Their religion is bad, my religion is good".
    You presume wrong. On some issues such
    as the recent priest scandels, the catholic church could
    have done a better job. To Cobra. You do know that for bad or good the catholic church is the first christian church right?
    It would be if you expound more on what you think is the catholic church's problem.

    Right ok then, so stoning a man to death for picking up sticks HELPED the people did it? Really? BEcause jees, if they hadn't stoned him to death, well the society would clearly have crumbled............ Uh-huh well hell thats plausible...... oh wait no, its not.
    Read the section on how aaron's sons died and all of israel mourned. What good is a law if it is not followed? What
    good is the punishment for murder if you only get 1 year?

    And condoning slavery, that helped the slaves did it? Oh wait it doesn't but who the hell cares about them, as long as the israelites are ok......... yea 'benevolent'.
    The passage is not talking about jewish slaves
    but slaves from conquest. God will deliver
    those who keeps his laws just has he did in Egypt.
    The laws were there to proctect society just as laws today.
    Following the law is not the only condition for being rightous as I've already pointed out.

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    >You do know that for bad or good the catholic church is the first christian church right?

    Im fairly certain thats incorrect. The Catholic Church came about as a melding of old Pagan traditions with Christian beliefs.

    >Read the section on how aaron's sons died ...
    >The passage is not talking about jewish slaves ...

    you failed to address how one can consider god benevolent based on how he is portrayed in the bible
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    Im fairly certain thats incorrect. The Catholic Church came about as a melding of old Pagan traditions with Christian beliefs.
    Please cite where you came up with that.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook2.html
    has lots of early church documents. There are alot of
    dead links though. It's possible some
    melding occured, specially with the dates of specific holidays
    but I don't think your will be able to find a belief directly based
    on paganism.

    you failed to address how one can consider god benevolent based on how he is portrayed in the bible
    The person who carried fire wood directly disobeyed one
    of gods commandments. God had already decreed that
    the punishment for disobeying the sabath was death.
    Without the strict laws and the belief that they were from a higher power I doubt the jewish faith would have lasted. They barely survived through egypt, babalonia, and roman occupation.

  9. #624
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "What good is a law if it is not followed? "

    What good is a law designed to flatter Gods ego (no work on the Sabbath), that is enforced by the death penalty? Thats NOT benevolence thats MALEVOLENCE.

    What POSSIBLE downsides can there be to NOT killing people who pick up sticks on the Sabbath, people might start to work on the Sabbath....... OH NO that's just terrible because......... errr because........ errr........

    Its like me saying to my children every thursday do X, and if you don't I will kill you, that is NOT benevolent.

    "The passage is not talking about jewish slaves
    but slaves from conquest"

    So? It still says its ok to BEAT YOUR SLAVES, because you own them, even if you beat them so much they DIE its ok, as long as they don't die too soon.

    That's bloody barbaric, how can you possibly argue otherwise?

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    Senior Member joshdick's Avatar
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    Question Why do so many people fear death?

    It really amazes me that almost everybody fears death. Socrates pointed out correctly that such fears are irrational, as they are completely unfounded and baseless. No one here has ever died, nor has anyone here talked to someone who died and said it was unpleasant. For all any of us know, dying is a nice experience. Fearing death is pointless. You cannot stop it; you can only enjoy your life while you're here. Why waste what little time you have worrying about something you know nothing about?
    FAQ

    "The computer programmer is a creator of universes for which he alone is responsible. Universes of virtually unlimited complexity can be created in the form of computer programs." -- Joseph Weizenbaum.

    "If you cannot grok the overall structure of a program while taking a shower, you are not ready to code it." -- Richard Pattis.

  11. #626
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    Nick, your Catholic?

    So then...... uh....... you do know that the catholic church's official stand point on evolution is that it was true, ie. that the bible is NOT a literally account of the past.

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    Nick, your Catholic?

    So then...... uh....... you do know that the catholic church's official stand point on evolution is that it was true, ie. that the bible is NOT a literally account of the past.
    Yeah i'm catholic. I spend alot of time with noncatholics,one
    of which is biologist, but I'm rather timid to bring up the
    creationist evolution debate. This seems to be the official catholic stand. http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm

  13. #628
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "This seems to be the official catholic stand. http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/whatsaid.htm"

    Yes.......

    In his Encyclical Humani generis [1950], my predecessor Pius XII had already stated that there was no opposition between evolution and the doctrine of the faith about man and his vocation
    Today, almost half a century after the publication of the Encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition in the theory of evolution of more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory
    so you accept evolution then?

    I know, i know ideally you'd actually think for yourself, but since your religion now accepts it, surely you too will accept it with the same dogmatic ferver as the rest of the answers you have handed to you.

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    Catholitism does not *accept* it. What pope John has said
    is that accepting it with the propositions
    listed does not contradict catholitism.
    I already mention at the beginning of this thread that
    there was visible signs of physical evolution in
    humans. Havn't I already said that how god directly creates
    is not mentioned in the bible.

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    "unfortunately Jesus resurrection differs from both Jewish and Greek beliefs of the period dramatically"

    And........
    at this time period it was not comman for people to just change there beliefs at random when ever they felt like it.

    "During this age there were a few dozen people calling them selves a Messiah as we have had over the last 2000 years"

    Perhaps Yeshu was a conjurer.
    and he put a spell on 1,000s of people after he died that made them think he had risen and was the Messiah. Anyways since you brought it up:

    An early mention of the miracles of Christ comes from Julian the Apostate (Roman Emperor from 361-363 A.D.) who was an enemy of Christianity, he wrote:

    "Jesus . . . has now been honored for about
    three hundred years; having done nothing throughout his lifetime that was worthy of fame, unless anyone thinks it a very great work to heal the lame and the blind and to cast out demons in the towns of Bethsaida and Bethany."

    Thallus' Eclipse - 52 C.E.
    A "passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse."
    - Harry V. Martin. "Proving the Historic Jesus"

    According to McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, "Thallus, a Samaritan-born historian mentioned Christ in 52 C.E. However his works are no longer extant, so we have only citations of it by others...Julius Africanus, a Christian writing about 221, says, talking about the darkness that fell when Christ was crucified, 'Thallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun -- unreasonably, as it seems to me.' (It is unreasonable because the crucifixion was at Passover, which is based on the lunar calendar and requires a full moon. When there's a full moon, the moon is at the opposite side of the earth from where it has to be for an eclipse.)".
    "Phelgon, another first-century historian, is also quoted by Africanus as saying 'during the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon'. Phelgon's comment (presumably the same one) is also referred to by Philopon."
    - James Kiefer
    "On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover."
    - Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a. Yeb. IV 3; 49a:

    (Note that "hanged" here means "hanged on a cross " - crucified.)

    This account "agrees with the whole tendency of ancient Jewish sources, which do not deny the existence and execution of Jesus. Indeed, not even the miracles of Jesus are denied, but are rather interpreted as acts of sorcery. The reference to the herald seeking out defense witnesses for forty days may be an apologetic thrust against the canonical Gospels' depiction of arrest, trial, and execution, all in one twenty-four-hour period."
    - John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.
    Now give me historical proof of someone claiming that Jesus did not preform miracles, and that the darkness did not accor.
    Note: the only refute I've seen for the Babyoninan talamad refrnce is that they are refering to another jesus. Simply because science can't prove miricles is not proof that they never happend.

    Ok let me get this straight because one whacked out kid liked natural selection that makes it....... false? bad? what?

    Man that is your weakest argument yet!

    Natural selection is a process; a physical process, its not a belief system.
    ....
    What on Earth are you talking about? Religion has caused immense social damage millions and millions of people have lost there lives over the history of humanity because of it. Religion is also unnesesary, mankind could exist without it.

    The argument that evolution is socially damaging is truely absurd, what basis do you have for claiming that the shootings would not have occured if the kid had not known about natural selection? Got any data showing an increase in crime rates after hte introduction of evolutionary theory into schooling? No, what a suprise.

    Furthermore what about of the leaps in biology and medicine brought about by the understanding of evolutionary principles?

    Once again your arguments are a joke.

    1 kid in how long has Natural Selection been taughted in schools compared to how long Christinity existed before it was used in horrible reasons? That kid will be the first in how many? That kid destoyed your beliefs that with out religon the world would be a better place without religon, you don't seem to get that fact that religon is the scape goat, and removing religon would just lead to another scape goat.

    Furthermore, what about the leap in the treatments of others from Roman Socaity, and Jewish culture. The amount of charity that christinity is a part of.


    How is it possible that God can be benevolent and have a man stoned to death for picking up sticks?

    How can a kind God say that beating your slave is ok aslong as he doesn't die straight away?

    What kind of a God destroys all life on Earth bar a family and a few animals?

    Does that sound benevolent to you?
    So Cylde your going to nit pick at the fly well a camel runs over you.

    Also why do you think it is right to make the only person that is good have to live with people who do nothing but wrong.

    -I have to go bye
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

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