Sentaku senshi

[quote]
"ok, try this Atoms were first theroized to exist by Democritus. He had no proof that they existed,"

Right........ however it WAS a reasonable hypothesis consistent with limitations present in th observeable world AND it was MERELY conjecture and was NOT "believed" to be fact untill evidence for it emerged.

"then scientst probly starting with Newton create the a corpuscular, or atomic, model yet there is still no proof of atoms"

... ok......

"Dalton proposed that all matter was made of atoms in the late 1700/early 1800's but he had not proved there existence."

....... yes.........

"It wasn't until Rutherford and his student C.T.R Wilson used a cloud chamber to show that if thin gold foil is bomared by heliun nuclei, most of the particles pass straight through but some were defected at a large angle"

And the conclusion is.........

"This deflection was caused by the alpha particles colliding wiht the nucleous of the gold atoms that we had proof of atoms"

Oh, there is no conclusion..... ok...... good argument.
[quote]

My point is this Cyde Lack of evidence does not mean that something does not exist. There is no logic in concluding that well since I have no evidence in either way it does not exist.

The most advanced area of Science is life, the most advanced life is humans.

No.

Tell me some flaws

oh and just because science can't explain it does not mean it's a flaw. Nor does someone misinturpreting it cause a flaw. Nor does someone deciding it say something it it no way does say make it a flaw.

Yet they don't think God is fake.

Diseases would of wiped us out long ago, there are people imunien to Aids, blackdeath, ect. You would need some sort of super disease witch would need to by created by Humans. As for a meterotie there are nummerous ways to deal with such problems.


and as far as Science is belives, humanity is the only inteligence there is.


I'm tired of this argument. Lack of evidence does not mean it didnt' happen.

Time and time again if you compare what the Bible says happend and what science says happend it is the same thing. Only the bible was writen much long before science thought of it. Second many ancient civiliations had knowledge that we are only recently have begun to discover what this civilations already knew.

The Big Bang means there is a begining. Well if there is proof that means it isn't magic. Second I take what is writen in the Bible as true, just like any other historical piece.

(minus ages)

__________________
I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

-Isaiah 30.7

Polymorphic OOP

That's an obcure generalization on both accounts.

Read the first 20 pages of this topic

Yes, yes. Don't consider anything a flaw.

Yes, and just because someone believes in it doesn't make it true. A lot of kids believe in santa claus and the tooth faerie -- Does that make them real as well?

That's not true. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't happen. If you can't admit that a natural disaster is capable of wiping humans out than that's just ignorance.

No it doesn't. Science doesn't say that at all. In fact, religions often lean more towards that assumption than science. Science actually says the entire opposite. On earth, there's the theory of evolution, that humans, animals, and all other forms of life on our planet are related through evolution. Just because we are capable of speech and we have proven ourselves to be capable of establishing civilizations does not make us "the only intelligence there is." Anything with a brain has intelligence, we just have evolved more in that respect than most other animals (and once again, whether for the better or the worse is an opinion, and there are parts of our brains that can be looked at as less capable than other animals').

And aside from that, science theorizes that there can be intelligent life on places other than the earth.

If you think that science claims humanity is the only intelligence there is, then you should go and study.

Yeah, and it doesn't mean that it did happen. But if you have little evidence to support your idea, then that doesn't say anything in your favor.

If you went to court without any evidence of the defendant's involvement in the crime, you can't use the excuse "lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen." Just because it's a possibility doesn't make it true, especially when there is a lot of evidence supporting other ideas as well.

Our view is the same way. We can not prove our side just as you can not prove yours. If you can't see that, then you just don't get it!

And also, a lot of what the Bible says doesn't agree with what science says. The difference is that anytime science says something in the Bible is wrong, those who read the Bible then just change their idea and say "oh, that's a metaphor." Just because the Bible says some things that agree with science doesn't mean anything other than people back when the Bible was written weren't completely oblivious to the world around them. They made logical observations on things and made conclussions just like us -- some valid some not. Of course a lot of what they say is going to agree, that doesn't mean anything at all in terms of whether or not religion itself is valid.

It doesn't mean there's a beginning of time/space at all. What it says is that's how the universe as we know it started. Things existed prior just as things will exist after the universe as we know it ends.

Oh yes, just believe it without questioning it. That's blind faith. You have no reason to believe that everything in the Bible is completely historically accurate -- only that some things in it are true, other things are possibly true, and some is false.

Yes, yes. Only pick and choose parts that you like. Could it be that maybe you are admitting there is a flaw? Oh no! You can't have that -- quick thing of something to correct yourself before the next post!

neo_strife

I don't believe in the gods in most religions. I do believe some being created life on this planet, but it isn't perfect or all powerful. Only compared directly to us it may apear to be the perfect all powerful being of most religions.

__________________
If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut.
--Albert Einstein

novacain

Within the next ten years powerful space telescopes will enable the visual exploration of distant solar systems. This will enable us to tell if planets like earth are rare or common. That is they will refine the Green Bank equation.

If they discover life on other planets. What will the bible say? god created them as well? That creationism is just a metaphore?

think about this.

If aliens exist and don't have THE same bible then how can YOUR version of god exist?


As you keep saying Sentaku senshi, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Why is your brand of religion right and therefore all others wrong? (as no other accepts Jesus as the true son of god who died on the cross)

Why is the bible true and the Koran ect a massive fraudulent work of fiction perpetrated on millions? Especially when these millions believe so strongly they will die for their faith in it.


Supply ONE indesputable fact to prove the bible is correct and all other religious texts false.

__________________
"Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered."
George Best

"If you are going through hell....keep going."
Winston Churchill

lightatdawn

>>Supply ONE indesputable fact to prove the bible is correct and all other religious texts false.

Hell, supply one even remotely reasonable argument that the [christian] bible is correct and all other religious texts are false.

Yes, I know I said I'd stay out of this a while back but its soooo hard. It pains me to watch a large handful of reasonable people, beat their brains out on a small few who are completly ignoring them. Suggestion: If you have no counter argument, stop responding instead with unrelated nonsense!

__________________
"There's always another way"
-lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

Sentaku senshi

1. Christianity alone is centered in the historical events associated with a Person - the birth, death, resurrection, and imminent, glorious return of Jesus Christ. Other religions are invariably based on the teachings, rather than the acts, of their founders

2. All other religions of the world are fundamentally just one religion - one of salvation by works. Each religion sets up a particular set of religious rites, of commands and restrictions, and of ethical principles to follow, and then teaches that if a man does these things he will be saved. The human origin of each of these systems is indicated by the fact that each is humanly attainable. The Bible, however, sets its moral and ethical standard as the very holiness and perfection of God Himself, and demands nothing less than this for salvation. Obviously, no man would invent a standard which was utterly impossible for any man to keep.

3.

"No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."
Dr. Nelson Glueck


4. The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout.

__________________
I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

-Isaiah 30.7

Polymorphic OOP

And you know what? I say Jesus wasn't resurrected and I say he wasn't the son of god -- I even go so far as to say there is no such thing as god. Just because someone wrote it down doesn't mean it's a fact.

That doesn't make their religion any less valid than Christianity.

Polymorphic OOP

All of your posts just show more and more how ignorant you are of other peoples beliefs. Making statements like these is only hurting yourself.

Again, you are just dancing around the argument with statements which have no bearing on the validity of Christianity over other religions.

Point? You can say that about things written in the holy books of other religions as well, not just the Bible. The fact that there are few contradictions in terms of geography and social interactions between civilizations doesn't mean anything about the religion itself. If, however, an archaeological discovery proved the resurrection of Christ, then it would mean something. Until something like that happens it means nothing at all.

Of course this is going to be true. First, anything that was written which concerned the time at which the Bible was written is of course going to agree with lots of things that we know about that time period. This is because the Bible was oriented towards and written by people who were alive at the time. For instance -- if you were to write a story, whether fiction or nonfiction, that took place at the time it was written, you will most-likely not contradict what is going on in the world at that time. That would just be silly.

This goes back to what I just said and also the fact that the old testament was based around stories which were previously told orally. A lot of things, for instance, in the old testament, will have some validity but not all. That is because, in many cases, the stories may have been based around something which happened to them in history, but the details or the story as a whole were exagerated or fabricated to make them more interesting.

No, actually there are many contradictions, though that doesn't mean it is any more true or false. Either way, that statement, has no bearing on the validity of the religion. I can write down my beliefs and later on, more people can write down theirs which may be similar, and eventually, someone might put them all into one book. Does that make everything I say true? Not at all. It just says that a bunch of people with similar beliefs wrote down what they believed. Nothing more, nothing less.

dP munky

wow! im glad these posts are proving peoples points...oh, wait we're just going around in circles

this is just one of those debates that doesnt have a winner, why doesnt everyone keep his/her respective beliefs to themselves?

Polymorphic OOP

Because it's healthy for both sides to take the time to think about their beliefs and hear what the other side has to say! Even though it's obvious the opposing side may never be convinced of the other side's beliefs, as it is all opinion at this point, you can't deny that they'll have a better understanding of their beliefs as well as others'

dP munky

isnt that in itself an opinion... LOL, j/k

i was just saying because this thread has almost 300 posts and really, if you read all of em, its about 20.

__________________
guns dont kill people, abortion clinics kill people.

Sentaku senshi

Now lets go through the major theory's of what really happend:

Wrong tomb: The tomb was well know, and second Romain officals would have produced the body and end everything right there.

Hallucinating: Hallucinations are subjective and individual. No two people have the same experience.

Jesus Survied:
"It is impossible that a being who had stolen half-dead out of the sepulchre, who crept about weak and ill, wanting medical treatment, who required bandaging, strengthening, and indulgence, and who still at last yielded to his sufferings, could have given the disciples the impression that he was a Conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of life, an impression that would lay at the bottom of their future ministry."
- David F. Strauss, an opponent of Christianity

The offical stole the body: Again in order to stop christinity all they would need to do is get the Body.

The Soldiers Fell Asleep: The amout of noise someone would have made stealing the Body would have woken the guards up if they fell asleep. Second the neatness of the Robery makes it sorta hard to belive that the tomb was robed.

__________________
I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

-Isaiah 30.7

novacain

You have not studied the opposition religions have you. I would go and READ about what others hold holy before commenting on it.

Sentaku senshi
>>1. Christianity alone is centered in the historical events associated with a Person - the birth, death, resurrection, and imminent, glorious return of Jesus Christ. Other religions are invariably based on the teachings, rather than the acts, of their founders

No its not.

Islam is centered on a actual person who is even mentioned in the bible. As is Buddhism. Get your facts right! Ohhh thats right you are not concerned with FACTS just FAITH.


Sentaku senshi
Where did you get this as it is obviously not your work. There are no typos!

>>2. All other religions of the world are fundamentally just one religion - one of salvation by works.

So by your actions you gain salvation? ie no sin = saved How is this different to christianity?

>>Each religion sets up a particular set of religious rites, of commands and restrictions, and of ethical principles to follow, and then teaches that if a man does these things he will be saved.

How is this differnet to christianity?

>>The human origin of each of these systems is indicated by the fact that each is humanly attainable.

OK, though I could argue this is not true for Buddhism for one. It is definately not correct for Austrailan Indegenous Religions. It is very hard to become the Rainbow Serpent or reach 'Dreamtime'.

>>The Bible, however, sets its moral and ethical standard as the very holiness and perfection of God Himself, and demands nothing less than this for salvation.

Buddhism also strive to seek enlightenment and stop the reicarnation round-about ie achive Nirvana and become part of god. How is this different?


>>Obviously, no man would invent a standard which was utterly impossible for any man to keep.

This statement is nonsense. Of course man would. Just as man would invent things to explain that he can not understand. If he wanted you to fail and have to resort to god.

Do you read this stuff before you cut and paste it?

As to the statement by Gluck IN 1959 from a religious web site that does not have a quote from earlier than 1959. Haven't there been any discoveries since 1960 of note?

http://www.makeitclear.org/edevotional.htm

Again just because it appears on a religious propaganda web site does not make it true. I can find sites that claim the holocaust did not take place, does that mean it did not?


from the same site do not fall into this trap

" Too many times Christians share their ‘opinions’ or the opinions of others to make a point instead of using facts or evidences. Some even get so “emotionally charged” in their defense of Scripture that they lose touch with using logic and facts to be convincing with truth."

>>4. The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout.

No the bible never contradicts itself. LOL! What are these then?

“Thou shalt not kill,”

he ordered death for all opposition, wholesale drowning and mass exterminations; punishes offspring to the fourth generation (Ex. 20:5); ordered pregnant women and children to be ripped up (Hos. 13:16);

Who carried the cross?
Read

Mathew 27:32
Mark 15:21

and then
John 19:17

See any differences?

What were Jesus’ last dying words on the cross?

Mathew 27:46 “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Luke 23:46 “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.”
John 19:30 “It is finished.”

SO AGAIN
Supply ONE indesputable fact to prove the bible is correct and all other religious texts false.

At least I took the time to become informed on all the major religions before I made my choice (to have faith or to renounce it). As I have stated before I was raised a methodist and without doubt I have spent more time in chruch than you.


Look up the 'Jerusalem Syndrome', there is even a special clinic to help the victims, then prahaps you might understand the power of desire on the human mind.

__________________
"Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered."
George Best

"If you are going through hell....keep going."
Winston Churchill

novacain

dP munky
>>this is just one of those debates that doesnt have a winner, why doesnt everyone keep his/her respective beliefs to themselves?



And you felt it was imperative to tell us YOUR opinion because....................?

__________________
"Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
Friedrich Nietzsche

"I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars......the rest I squandered."
George Best

"If you are going through hell....keep going."
Winston Churchill

Clyde

" I'm tired of this argument. Lack of evidence does not mean it didnt' happen"

This failure to understand the point at hand STAGGERS me:

*In a court room near you....*

Prosecution: The defendant is on trial for Murder!..... The prosecution rests.

Defense: This is ridiculous THERE IS NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE PROSECUTIONS CLAIM, judge throw this case out.... The defense rests.

Judge Setak: GUILTY! absence of evidence doesn't mean it didnt happen.

Are you understanding yet?

Absence of evidence does NOT mean that an event definitely did not occur, BUT it does mean that we have NO REASON to believe that it did.

Why exactly do you think I keep bringing up invisible kangaroos? (no i do not have an invisible kangaroo fetish).

It is to demonstrate the nonsensical nature of the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" argument.

My kangaroo MIGHT exist, BUT I'D HAVE TO BE INSANE TO BELIEVE THAT HE ACTUALLY DOES!!

Like wise God MIGHT exist BUT you ARE insane to believe that he actually does.

Its simply a matter of probability, given no evidence nor theory the probability of any specific property of the universe being true is 1/ infinity.

(I should talk abit about the specificity vs. generality, from a probabilistic point of view the more specific your desciption the lower the probability is, for obvious reasons, with that in mind

Now we can reduce that probability in many cases, for example your "what's hanging on my wall" question: Well I cannot say for certain BUT given that within the characteristics of the universe that we DO have evidence for (ie. matter, gravity, the laws of physics chemistry biology, etc.) there are many possible solutions, we now have a set of answers with a stupidly small but not infinitely small probability: A pig might be nailed to your wall; improbable but NOT as improbable as something that lies OUTSIDE our group of "allowed" characteristics like for example a live pixie made of solid gold. Furthermore GIVEN there are plenty of other walls in other houses we can look at we can further refine our probablistic estimate to a set of answers found on many other walls: Paintings, certificates, mirrors, posters, etc. Now we have a "guess" that is getting to be reasonably probable, and even then im still being fairly general.

As for your atoms example, well its not a specific property (ie. its a pretty general one, the ancient greeks did not say to themselves "hey I know, matter is composed of protons neutrons and electrons, with these charges, and this wavefunction, etc.): there were ONLY two possiblities; either A) matter was not composed of subunits or B) it was, given that quite a few thinkers of the time believed that you couldn't get infinities in nature, B seemed like a good bet: The atom model was born.

Note that it was not stupendously improbable like my kangaroo OR GOD.

Now you might claim that the same applies to God: Either there is a creator or there isn't, 50:50 right? Well no, not really, because relativity implies there was no time prior to the big bang, but lets assume there is no relativity, is the probability of God then 1/2? No; Creator is a misnomer in this instance because what we really mean is CAUSE, was there a CAUSE, now if we have no relativity the probability that there was a cause would seem to be atleast 1/2 maybe more depending on how valid you deem it to conclude based on the characteristics displayed WITHIN the universe.... but does that mean the probability of God is 1/2? No, because there are an infinite number of 'possible' causes only one of which is your speicific God. GAME OVER.

This argument, this failure to grasp the very basics of HOW to reason, lies at the crux of almost every religious debate i've had. How do YOU work out what to believe and what not to believe in during everyday life? Why do you believe there is a keyboard under your fingers right now, and not that a voracious pack of wolves are about to burst into your house and eat you alive? Answer that question and apply the same reasoning to God. He will vanish.