God

This is a discussion on God within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; And around and around in the circle we go... Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!" Religion:"There is no ...

  1. #271
    Cheesy Poofs! PJYelton's Avatar
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    And around and around in the circle we go...

    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"

    How many more times are we gonna go around?

  2. #272
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Well, Cyde it's been two days and there are no killer rabits, I'm disapointed"

    ....... that was my point.....

    "There is no logic in the belive that because we have not proved x or y does not mean x or y does not exist, for if it was then it would be illogical for scientist to look for x or y."

    ....... you really have no idea what your talking about do you?

    "I ask you this Cyde what makes religon so powerful that just because someone says it's for the Lord he can command people? Don't tell me it's the Promise of something great such as virgins in heaven, because if it was then money would be Worshiped"

    What to say to this...... hmm...... well

    1) Money IS worshipped which kinda voids your entire argument anyway.

    2) There are plenty of reasons why religion is so powerfull, primarily indocrination, but it also appeals to humanities ego (religion places us firmly at the centre of creation, whereas we are totally insignificant in science: In the words of the late great Carl Sagan: "'We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering").

    It gives answers on a plate: Heres how to life your life, heres how (not) to think, heres what to believe, this is your place in the great scheme of things.

    Its another example of the power of group mentality: Humans love to belong in groups, football supporters, nationalism, racism, and many many more being examples of humanties group tendancies.

    It can be used as a shield to hide from our greatest fears; our own mortality and the mortality of those we love. (of course the alternative really isnt as bad as religious people make out, if you spend some time thinking about it)

    It still has a large amount of social standing in a large portion of the world, as such following religion comes with social benefits and not following it comes with social costs.

    Is that enough or do you need more?

    Anyhow this entire line of reasoning is a joke, presumeably you believe that all the pagans were wrong, all the hindus, buddists, taoists, the aztecs, in fact ALL the members of other religions that EVER WERE (bar Judaism) were all wrong, now given that THEIR religions were/are EQUALLY powerfull as YOUR religion and you believe them to be false, how can you claim that social power is in any way related to truth?

    Power != Truth
    Last edited by Clyde; 11-27-2002 at 02:31 PM.

  3. #273
    Programming Sex-God Polymorphic OOP's Avatar
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    I don't want to get too involved with this topic because they always go no where, but I'll just make on little insert:

    A common "proof" of god is that science says that matter can't be created from nothing, so god exists and must have existed forever in order to create the universe.

    It's funny to hear this, and it's always brought up when ever I'm in a religious discussion. It's a contradiction.

    One might as well say:

    "Nothing can be created from nothing, so there must be something else... which was created from nothing"

    It's a silly concept and proves nothing. If you were to use the same logic, then you'd have to say that something was around to create god, and someone to create him, etc.

    Also, arguing for a particular religion, such as Christianity, is just pointless. If you can't accept that there are religions other than yours that are just as valid, then you are just being ignorant. My point here isn't to say "atheism is the right way," my point is that your way isn't the only way. That's what the problem is. Every time I've gotten into a religious discussion it's one group claiming their religion is the correct one, and the other just trying to prove that their religion is as valid as any other.

    The problem is, Sentaku, that you ignore that. You have such blind faith that you don't question your own religion. I question religion a lot, I think about philosophy more than most people, maybe even more than you (yeah, it's possible). I question whether I'm right or wrong all the time, but it's apparent that you don't give your faith that much thought. If you can't admit there are flaws in your beliefs, jsut like there are flaws in everyone elses, then you don't understand your faith. That doesn't mean that if you question your own religion that your religion is wrong, it just shows that you've looked at the other side of the argument.

    Your posts are based around sentences that mean nothing. You say things like "There have been more Christians killed in the 20th century than in the previous nineteen centuries combined."

    Yeah, and? What was your point?

    You also attempt to say for a fact exactly what things from the old testament mean, such as woman being created from a man's rib. You can't say this for a fact. All we are saying is just that! We're not saying that it wasn't a metaphor, we're just saying that you can't just call certain things metaphors and other things facts just to better fit the mold.

    A literal interperetation of the bible was not uncommon, it's only becoming less and less common over time. Why? Because as science clarifies more and more, people beging to realize "Hey, the bible was wrong... maybe it was just a metaphor."

    I have faith in myself and what I believe. Why? Because I take the time to question it, not because I ignore everyone else's beliefs.

    And I also understand that there is the possibility that I'm wrong, just like you can be whether you admit to it or not. Just as we don't have proof neither do you, and you know what? It doesn't matter.

    If there is a god, it won't change the way I live my life. I have stronger morals than anyone else I know, religious or not. I don't have to get on my knees every week and worship something and beg of him to have mercy on me. If there is a god, and he forces you to worship him or else he damns you to eternal suffering, then that is not a god that I'd follow.

    If you created a living thing, would you make it worship you?

    If there is a god and there is a heaven, then not believing in a particular religion isn't going have an effect on your way into heaven. Being a good person what matters. That is why I don't fear anything. I don't believe in a god, I don't believe in a life after death, but I understand that if I am wrong, then it's okay. I'm not going believe in a religion out of fear.

  4. #274
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    Aeithest believe that they are different than those
    who worship false idols. But look at abortion and
    how they twist their morals to how they see fit.
    They worship money and themselves. How is this
    any different than sacraficing their babies to mollech?

    "I see now that Clyde (who
    hasn't even attempted to learn the c language) came here just
    to argue and make fun."
    I'm sorry I didn't really mean it. But look at the situation though.
    You have argued about god with Sentantaku
    Senshi 5 months ago and no one has changed.
    What is your real purpose in arguing this? Are you jealous of his
    convictions or are you just arguing to make fun of him?

    [qoute]
    believe in God because they are indocrinated into it,
    [/quote]
    I'm still learning. I was never indocrinated in it.

  5. #275
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    >....... you really have no idea what your talking about do you?

    ok, try this Atoms were first theroized to exist by Democritus. He had no proof that they existed, then scientst probly starting with Newton create the a corpuscular, or atomic, model yet there is still no proof of atoms. John Dalton proposed that all matter was made of atoms in the late 1700/early 1800's but he had not proved there existence. It wasn't until Rutherford and his student C.T.R Wilson used a cloud chamber to show that if thin gold foil is bomared by heliun nuclei, most of the particles pass straight through but some were defected at a large angle. This deflection was caused by the alpha particles colliding wiht the nucleous of the gold atoms that we had proof of atoms

    >1) Money IS worshipped which kinda voids your entire argument anyway.<
    Not by the masses.

    >2) There are plenty of reasons why religion is so powerfull, primarily indocrination, but it also appeals to humanities ego (religion places us firmly at the centre of creation, whereas we are totally insignificant in science: In the words of the late great Carl Sagan: "'We live on a hunk of rock and metal that circles a humdrum star that is one of 400 billion other stars that make up the Milky Way Galaxy which is one of billions of other galaxies which make up a universe which may be one of a very large number, perhaps an infinite number, of other universes. That is a perspective on human life and our culture that is well worth pondering").<

    According to Science I am a god nothing is more evolved, more complex. I am by far supeiror to everything.

    Religion on the other hand puts me at the fate of God, it is by his mercy not by anything I can do that I am forgivin.

    >It gives answers on a plate: Heres how to life your life, heres how (not) to think, heres what to believe, this is your place in the great scheme of things.<
    The same can be said about science.

    >Its another example of the power of group mentality: Humans love to belong in groups, football supporters, nationalism, racism, and many many more being examples of humanties group tendancies.<
    I don't think you see many football supporters waging war against supporters of the other team. (wait you mean socer don't you)


    >It can be used as a shield to hide from our greatest fears; our own mortality and the mortality of those we love. (of course the alternative really isnt as bad as religious people make out, if you spend some time thinking about it)<
    Right, religion says that I'm going to die as a result of sin.

    >It still has a large amount of social standing in a large portion of the world, as such following religion comes with social benefits and not following it comes with social costs.<
    Calling your self something and being it are diffent things.


    >Is that enough or do you need more?
    Why not?

    >Anyhow this entire line of reasoning is a joke, presumeably you believe that all the pagans were wrong, all the hindus, buddists, taoists, the aztecs, in fact ALL the members of other religions that EVER WERE (bar Judaism) were all wrong, now given that THEIR religions were/are EQUALLY powerfull as YOUR religion and you believe them to be false, how can you claim that social power is in any way related to truth?<

    Yet there social power ended up meaning nothing. Christinity and Islam are the two largest religious groups in the world. The diffence between the two by far the majority of converts from Christinity to Islam with hardly any problems. The inverse is true for people converting from Islam to Christinity were offten times it means death.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  6. #276
    Programming Sex-God Polymorphic OOP's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sentaku senshi
    >....... you really have no idea what your talking about do you?
    >1) Money IS worshipped which kinda voids your entire argument anyway.<
    Not by the masses.
    So you're saying what makes a religion valid is the amount of people who believe it?

    According to Science I am a god nothing is more evolved, more complex. I am by far supeiror to everything.
    If you think that's what you can conclude from science, then you just don't get it.

  7. #277
    cereal killer dP munky's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PJYelton
    And around and around in the circle we go...

    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"
    Atheist:"Absense of proof is not proof of existence!"
    Religion:"There is no proof against God!"

    How many more times are we gonna go around?
    ...im dizzy
    guns dont kill people, abortion clinics kill people.

  8. #278
    Christian
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    >I don't want to get too involved with this topic because they always go no where, but I'll just make on little insert:

    A common "proof" of god is that science says that matter can't be created from nothing, so god exists and must have existed forever in order to create the universe.

    It's funny to hear this, and it's always brought up when ever I'm in a religious discussion. It's a contradiction.

    One might as well say:

    "Nothing can be created from nothing, so there must be something else... which was created from nothing"

    It's a silly concept and proves nothing. If you were to use the same logic, then you'd have to say that something was around to create god, and someone to create him, etc.<

    God has no begining therefor he needs no creator. Numbers have no beging nor end so not everythign needs a begining.

    >Also, arguing for a particular religion, such as Christianity, is just pointless. If you can't accept that there are religions other than yours that are just as valid, then you are just being ignorant. My point here isn't to say "atheism is the right way," my point is that your way isn't the only way. That's what the problem is. Every time I've gotten into a religious discussion it's one group claiming their religion is the correct one, and the other just trying to prove that their religion is as valid as any other.

    The problem is, Sentaku, that you ignore that. You have such blind faith that you don't question your own religion. I question religion a lot, I think about philosophy more than most people, maybe even more than you (yeah, it's possible). I question whether I'm right or wrong all the time, but it's apparent that you don't give your faith that much thought. If you can't admit there are flaws in your beliefs, jsut like there are flaws in everyone elses, then you don't understand your faith. That doesn't mean that if you question your own religion that your religion is wrong, it just shows that you've looked at the other side of the argument.<

    My faith is not blind, and nor do I not question my belifs. I don't belong to any perticluer church and the last church I went to, a methodist church in retrospect after reading the bible to be wrong in how they preached. If you were to read this thread you would see that I questioned the orgin of the Creaton of the
    earth. I question what others say I should belive, and what I belive my self.

    Kindess towards others is all God wants, not sacrifces nor anything else I have no reason to question that, or see any flaws in it.

    Do I find my relgion to have flaws? No, do I consider how people have explained it to be flawed a great deal.

    >Your posts are based around sentences that mean nothing. You say things like "There have been more Christians killed in the 20th century than in the previous nineteen centuries combined."

    Yeah, and? What was your point?<

    My point is that if God is fake as an invicible Kangaroo with techno color fur. Then why would so many people choose to belive in him, even though it means death.

    >You also attempt to say for a fact exactly what things from the old testament mean, such as woman being created from a man's rib. You can't say this for a fact. All we are saying is just that! We're not saying that it wasn't a metaphor, we're just saying that you can't just call certain things metaphors and other things facts just to better fit the mold.

    A literal interperetation of the bible was not uncommon, it's only becoming less and less common over time. Why? Because as science clarifies more and more, people beging to realize "Hey, the bible was wrong... maybe it was just a metaphor."<

    I am not a fundulmentist, and do not take the bible word for word this would be rediculious and the bible would be controdicting it self left and right.

    As for the rest of your quote, Do you belive that the bible contains metaphors or not?

    >I have faith in myself and what I believe. Why? Because I take the time to question it, not because I ignore everyone else's beliefs.

    And I also understand that there is the possibility that I'm wrong, just like you can be whether you admit to it or not. Just as we don't have proof neither do you, and you know what? It doesn't matter.

    If there is a god, it won't change the way I live my life. I have stronger morals than anyone else I know, religious or not. I don't have to get on my knees every week and worship something and beg of him to have mercy on me. If there is a god, and he forces you to worship him or else he damns you to eternal suffering, then that is not a god that I'd follow.

    If you created a living thing, would you make it worship you?

    If there is a god and there is a heaven, then not believing in a particular religion isn't going have an effect on your way into heaven. Being a good person what matters. That is why I don't fear anything. I don't believe in a god, I don't believe in a life after death, but I understand that if I am wrong, then it's okay. I'm not going believe in a religion out of fear.<

    I might be wrong also, somone is correct there is only one answer.

    I'm going to play scrabble I'll add more later
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  9. #279
    Registered User Aran's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sentaku senshi

    God has no begining therefor he needs no creator. Numbers have no beging nor end so not everythign needs a begining.
    then is it not equally valid to say the universe has no beginning?

    My faith is not blind,
    lie again, please!
    You have frequently blindly forgotten valid points that Clyde has made because it's logic puts your faith up in flames, yet still you have faith. That is called blind faith.

    and nor do I not question my belifs. I don't belong to any perticluer church and the last church I went to, a methodist church in retrospect after reading the bible to be wrong in how they preached. If you were to read this thread you would see that I questioned the orgin of the Creaton of the
    earth. I question what others say I should belive, and what I belive my self.
    er... you kinda just took other people's ideas and said "i believe in this guy's crap". You never have questioned what they had to say, you simply took it all or nothing. When you post a link without anything about what in it you agree with, it is perfectly logical for me to assume that you believe in all that is said in that link.

    Kindess towards others is all God wants,
    Nope. He also wants everyone to believe in him.

    Do I find my relgion to have flaws? No,
    then you obviously haven't been paying any attention to what Clyde has been saying throughout this thread.

    Religion has many flaws, but you just choose to ignore them because they make things too complicated for your simple mind. (don't mean to be condescending here, but it seems to be the truth)

    My point is that if God is fake as an invicible Kangaroo with techno color fur. Then why would so many people choose to belive in him, even though it means death.
    Because they see things differently, or the power of suggestion weighs heavy on them.

    I am not a fundulmentist, and do not take the bible word for word this would be rediculious and the bible would be controdicting it self left and right.
    If woman wasn't created from man's rib, than perhaps earth wasn't created by God. Both points make an equal amount of sense.

  10. #280
    cereal killer dP munky's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Aran Elus
    You have frequently blindly forgotten valid points that Clyde has made because it's logic puts your faith up in flames, yet still you have faith. That is called blind faith.
    ok, im not saying that senshi is right, but isnt that what faith is, belief in the presense of doubt?

    webster says:
    faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof

    blind faith would just be agreeing w/ "some guys crap"
    guns dont kill people, abortion clinics kill people.

  11. #281
    Registered User dirkduck's Avatar
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    I reccomend you all go here: http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi. Theres a lot of good reading there.

  12. #282
    Programming Sex-God Polymorphic OOP's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sentaku senshi
    Numbers have no beging nor end so not everythign needs a begining.
    Yes, that's my point. If one can so easily accept that concept, then they should equally be able to understand that it is equally as possible that the universe existed forever. You don't need a god to make that statement true. In fact, introducing a god only creates more questions and contradictions than it solves.

    Do I find my relgion to have flaws? No
    That's just ignorance. If you truely think that, then it IS blind faith. If it didn't have flaws, then it would be a fact, not a belief.

    My point is that if God is fake as an invicible Kangaroo with techno color fur. Then why would so many people choose to belive in him, even though it means death.
    Using the fact that "other people believe in it" does not make it true. It doesn't even make your view more valid. Don't use nonsense to walk around our statements.

    As for the rest of your quote, Do you belive that the bible contains metaphors or not?
    Yes, I do, but not to the extent that a lot of people do. In my opinion (yes, opinion), a lot of what was written in the bible was meant to be taken literally. Over time, stuff that was meant to be taken literally becomes less and less believable, so people say it's a metaphor instead. Who am I to say what's a metaphor and what is not in the Bible? I have no idea, just like you don't either. The fact is that no one here really knows. I'm presenting my opinion. Understand that yours isn't true simply because it is possible and that some other people agree.

  13. #283
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    Clarify your message!

    Sentaku,
    I probably disagree with most of what you say, but maybe I agree too. The point is, I can't tell. All your posts come through in bold type - including the original quotes. In other words, I can't tell what you're saying from what you're replying to, except by guesswork. Check your code tags please. See polymorphic above for examples of editing your reply.
    Last edited by salvelinus; 11-27-2002 at 06:47 PM.
    Truth is a malleable commodity - Dick Cheney

  14. #284
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    If woman wasn't created from man's rib, than perhaps earth wasn't created by God. Both points make an equal amount of sense.
    As I explained earlier this is a metaphore. The garden
    of Eden aws totally different than our world.
    Directly created from man's rib doesn't make much
    sense anyways since I don't think there would be that
    much to go around.

    Religion has many flaws, but you just choose to ignore them because they make things too complicated for your simple mind. (don't mean to be condescending here, but it seems to be the truth)
    And this shows your own self importance.

  15. #285
    Programming Sex-God Polymorphic OOP's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nick
    As I explained earlier this is a metaphore.
    You can say that about anything in the Bible which doesn't make sense in the modern world. How can you be certain that when the old testament was written this wasn't what they actually believed. You can't, just like anything else in the Bible. You can't just say "it's a metaphor" and state it as a fact. Sure, that would clarify some things, but was that the authors original intent? In my opinion, concerning the Bible, many times it's not. You saying it's a metaphor isn't any more valid than us saying it isn't. Go ask those who wrote it, or better yet, those who actually believed it, and see what they have to say. Until you can do that, calling it a metaphor is just as valid as us saying it's not.

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