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This is a discussion on God within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I never stated that evolution and creation were in oposition. It is entirely possible that god created the world through ...

  1. #211
    monotonously living Dissata's Avatar
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    I never stated that evolution and creation were in oposition. It is entirely possible that god created the world through an evolutionary prosses. however, my point was that evolution was not science, and neither is it proven.

    Belief in god doesn't come from proof<<

    Yes but the existence of god would come with proof, especialy if this god had the charcteristics as found in the bible. but that wasn't my point. my pint was that everyone who argued for christanity has argued with emotions, not with logic.
    if a contradiction was contradicted would that contradition contradict the origional crontradiction?

  2. #212
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "But the de Broglie Equation is meant as a method to make sense of matter behaving strangely like light. It's only a mathematical model"

    Ah but "only a mathematical model", is not much of an only, it works, and it works perfectly in so far as it adheres to prediction when tested with our most accurate measurements. Mathematical models are all we have in high level physics, from relativity to quantum mechanics to electrostatics, all mathematical models.

    The wavefunction model works, again it fits the evidence, and the model predicts that electron do not have localised momenta and speeds.

    Electrons do have set properties and describeable parameters, thats what the wavefunction is. But one of the properties of the electron is that its momentum and velocity do not exist as singular entities untill the moment of measurement, that is part of its wavelike nature.

    I lack the required level of knowledge to convince you, but quantum uncertainty as a "real" phenomenon crops up in all kinds of physics. Again i am lost for examples, i remember in my first year being told; "X cannot happen because doing so would violate quantum uncertainty". I specifically asked my Q.M. lecturer whether it was "real" or merely a measurement problem and i was told in no uncertain terms it was real. As far as i can see the wavefunction would not make sense if it wasn't real.

    You'll need to find yourself a Q.M. professor who can give you more detailed explanations and some good examples.

    Anyway.......... back to the banal topic at hand

    "not one of you, for or against christianity can make any valid aurguments."

    I think you'll find i can make a valid argument.

    "I have, for the past year, being examining what, in my opinion was scientificly valid. "

    I can tell you what the scientifically valid opinion is: Not to believe in God.

    This is how it works: It is illogical to believe in anything that you do not have evidence for. There is no evidence for God ergo it is illogical to believe in God. There, that wasn't so hard.

    Now there are two possible counter arguments: 1) There is evidence for God, and 2) Its not illogical to believe in things lacking evidence.

    Both are nonsensical:

    1) People normally point to currently unexplained phenomenon as if that were evidence for God... the logical failing amazes me. Current lack of a mechanistic explanation does not == evidence for God, any more than it equals evidence for miniture gnomes that wander round making things work.

    2) Always amazes me, I always wonder why those people are not cowering behind their sofas in fear that giant killer rabits are not about to materialise in their rooms........

    "P.S. to whoever came up with the argument that that the lord killed all the first-born in every house. You are thinking primitively, houses, as throughout history, especialy in egypt at that time, included not only you immediate family but also up to your second and third family. This does not also include any slaves and their family"

    Really? Not a single person lived without a child in their house? NOT ONE. I don't think so.

    Look at Italien society, or Jewish society or Muslim society they all have the same societal structure and YET the idea that not a SINGLE person lived w/o children/parents is still foolish, there are tradgedies, there are rich people and there are sterile people.

    "Belief in god doesn't come from proof"

    Which is why its ridiculous, "belief in floating elephants" doesn't come of proof either and its equally foolish.

    "I can say stuft like morality has no basis when you don't believe in a higher power"

    Wrong it has basis, its called evolution, i've already explained it in this thread!
    Last edited by Clyde; 11-22-2002 at 08:57 AM.

  3. #213
    Christian
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    >I think you'll find i can make a valid argument.

    Really you have yet to make one.

    >
    I can tell you what the scientifically valid opinion is: Not to believe in God.

    This is how it works: It is illogical to believe in anything that you do not evidence for. There is no evidence for God ergo it is illogical to believe in God. There, that wasn't so hard.

    Now there are two possible counter arguments: 1) There is evidence for God, and 2) Its not illogical to believe in things lacking evidence.

    Both are nonsensical:

    1) People normally point to currently unexplained phenomenon as if that were evidence for God... the logical failing amazes me. Current lack of a mechanistic explanation does not == evidence for God, any more than it equals evidence for miniture gnomes that wander round making things work.

    2) Always amazes me, I always wonder why those people are not cowering behind their sofas in fear that giant killer rabits are not about to materialise in their rooms........<

    Once again I ask you what is hanging on my wall in my room? There is no such thing as true logic Cyde. Logic at one point said that mice were created in a pile of cloths. It's all based upon what we know and if you say we now everything then what is the point of science?

    >Which is why its ridiculous, "belief in floating elephants" doesn't come of proof either and its equally foolish.<

    Try this most people belive in a higher power, yet most don't belive in things like floating elephants, despite lack of proof for both.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  4. #214
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Really you have yet to make one"

    I have made several you have merely averted your eyes.

    "Once again I ask you what is hanging on my wall in my room?"

    I have no idea, your point?

    " There is no such thing as true logic Cyde."

    Really? Guess maths doesnt work then, oh wait yes it does.

    " Logic at one point said that mice were created in a pile of cloths."

    No, it didn't. Furthermore, EVEN if at one point in time logic dictated that the most reasonable hypothesis was that mice were created in a pile of cloths........ so what? Logic merely presents you with the BEST option. Thats all you EVER have to go on.

    "It's all based upon what we know and if you say we now everything then what is the point of science?"

    We don't know everything, however that alters nothing.

    My argument stands: It is ILLOGICAL to believe in that which you have no evidence for. It is illogical to believe that giant killer rabits are about to materialise above your head, it is illogical to believe that miniture gnomes are responsible for every dynamic process, it is illogical to believe in an all powerfull all knowing God.....

    They are all equally illogical, equally ridiculous, have equal probability of being correct.

    In essence you have just tried to argue point 2.

    Your going to come back and say: Well God MIGHT exist then, you can't prove he doesn't, mice aren't made of cloths (not that logic ever dictated that they were mind you), logic can give you the wrong answer....... yada yada yada. Its true God MIGHT exist, my invisible kangaroo MIGHT exist, we MIGHT live in the matrix. They are all fantastically improbable, and THAT is what matters, probability NOT possibility.

    Think about it this way believeing in something lacking any evidence is no different to randomly picking something to believe in, given that there are an infinite number of possible characteristic to the universe the probability that any 1 chosen at random being correct is an infinitely small number. Thats the probability of God.

    Now go and cower behind your sofa because giant killer rabits are about to appear in your house.
    Last edited by Clyde; 11-22-2002 at 10:21 AM.

  5. #215
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    Clyde - if you don't believe in God then you have really no reason to argue about it because what Sentaki believes doesn't matter. Just go live it up cause you have only so many days left and you should make them count.

    Sentaki - Don't bother trying to convince Clyde, he just wants to argue no matter what anyway. Besides, he's the one going to hell!
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  6. #216
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Clyde - if you don't believe in God then you have really no reason to argue about it because what Sentaki believes doesn't matter."

    But unfortunately he does matter, religion does matter. It holds back education, it enables war, it impinges freedom and it wedges cultures apart.

    There are two arguments regarding religion I have:

    1) Is it true?

    And 2) Does it matter?

    The answer to 1) is NO and 2) is YES.

    It matters because it has such large presence in world affairs. How many deaths could have been avoided had society not been blighted by it? From the crusades, to the witch burnings, to the Israeli-Palestine war today, and many many more.

    An example of the negative influences religion has today is the holding back of stem cell research which in the long run will equate to the loss of a great number of lives. And what about the J.H.s witnesses who stop the children getting blood transfusions?

    But then religion often holds back science, it was religion who delayed the scientists working on transplants (unnatural).

    Look at the great problem of evolutionary education in America, why is it so many Americans are so poorly educated in developmental biology? Answer: Religion.

    Religion is an irrational belief system as such it can result in absolutely anything: Do you think that the people who flew those planes into the two towers would have been so willing if they weren't expecting to be met with 72 virgin brides when they rose to heaven?

    Religion is a force for ignorance on this Earth and a blight to society and I will fight it everywhere, and in any way that I can.

  7. #217
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FillYourBrain
    ...he just wants to argue no matter what anyway...
    EOF
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  8. #218
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    EOF?

  9. #219
    pronounced 'fib' FillYourBrain's Avatar
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    means I'm done
    "You are stupid! You are stupid! Oh, and don't forget, you are STUPID!" - Dexter

  10. #220
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    ah, gotcha

  11. #221
    Peace
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    >>EOF

    End-Of-File. And I think that goes for me as well. Theres really no point in me coming around and basically saying the same things Clyde is covering. For the purpose of the remainder of this discussion (with any luck, it will be short), it can in all probability be assumed that anything Clyde says, I second.

    Theres been some decent discussions here on simular topics, but this isn't one of them. I havent gained one single piece of insight into the reasoning behind choosing a religion based system. *starts singing Bare Naked Ladies* *It's all been done. Woohoohoooo. Its all been done.*
    "There's always another way"
    -lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

  12. #222
    Registered User rahaydenuk's Avatar
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    I fully agree with Clyde.

    He has spoken pure logic, which cannot be disputed without making improbable assumptions.

    There is no evidence for God and none against, but there is also no evidence for a blue elephant somehow surviving on Pluto and none against, so should we also believe that?

    You just have to look back to see the damage religion's caused and the damage it is most likely to cause in the future; I won't bother re-quoting all of Clyde's examples. It acts only as a barrier between the world coming together as one species and thus hinders our progress as a society. When compared with other 'intelligent' species such as various primates and maybe dolphins etc. we can seem rather illogical... some of us would blow themselves and innocents up in order to reach 72 imaginary virgins and please an imaginary entity who is supposedly waiting for them. Religion only clouds one's judgement.

    By the way, my argument is not with the people who practice religion, but with the concept itself.

    Regards,
    Richard Hayden. (rahaydenuk@yahoo.co.uk)
    Webmaster: http://www.dx-dev.com
    DXOS (My Operating System): http://www.dx-dev.com/dxos

    PGP: 0x779D0625

  13. #223
    Blank
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    "The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)"
    This is a common expression and was used to describe the
    black plague as well. Logically this also doesn't contradict.
    God could kill all the first-born of Egypt and then all of the
    egyptians.

  14. #224
    Christian
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    >I have no idea, your point?
    My point is that you have no clues what so ever on what is hanging on my wall. None, you don't even know how many walls I have, or how many things I have hanging. There is no proof in any direction.

    So thus "logicaly" you must conclude I have nothing hanging on my wall, witch is wrong.

    >Really? Guess maths doesnt work then, oh wait yes it does.
    You know that I was talking about logical concluistions

    >No, it didn't. Furthermore, EVEN if at one point in time logic dictated that the most reasonable hypothesis was that mice were created in a pile of cloths........ so what? Logic merely presents you with the BEST option. Thats all you EVER have to go on.<

    spontaneous generation, you have surly heard of it.

    >We don't know everything, however that alters nothing.
    yet until science can prove that somethign exisit it does not.

    >My argument stands: It is ILLOGICAL to believe in that which you have no evidence for. It is illogical to believe that giant killer rabits are about to materialise above your head, it is illogical to believe that miniture gnomes are responsible for every dynamic process, it is illogical to believe in an all powerfull all knowing God.....

    They are all equally illogical, equally ridiculous, have equal probability of being correct.

    In essence you have just tried to argue point 2.

    Your going to come back and say: Well God MIGHT exist then, you can't prove he doesn't, mice aren't made of cloths (not that logic ever dictated that they were mind you), logic can give you the wrong answer....... yada yada yada. Its true God MIGHT exist, my invisible kangaroo MIGHT exist, we MIGHT live in the matrix. They are all fantastically improbable, and THAT is what matters, probability NOT possibility.

    Think about it this way believeing in something lacking any evidence is no different to randomly picking something to believe in, given that there are an infinite number of possible characteristic to the universe the probability that any 1 chosen at random being correct is an infinitely small number. Thats the probability of God.

    Now go and cower behind your sofa because giant killer rabits are about to appear in your house.<

    If large group of people wonderd in the desert for 40 years and then near the end of your journey the leader wrote down everything that happend if what they said was not true what do you think would happen? Expeicaly when this large group is often not potraid in a good light.

    >It matters because it has such large presence in world affairs. How many deaths could have been avoided had society not been blighted by it? From the crusades, to the witch burnings, to the Israeli-Palestine war today, and many many more.<


    Question Cyde How many weopons did Relgion Create? Second question how many of this actions are supported by the Bible?

    >An example of the negative influences religion has today is the holding back of stem cell research which in the long run will equate to the loss of a great number of lives. And what about the J.H.s witnesses who stop the children getting blood transfusions?<

    The isuse is not on Stem cell research it is with with abortion. Yes I know that Stem cells can be retrived other ways but it is the main way and for the average person this is all they know.

    Love your neighbor as you love yourself: This is how christians are supose to act how do you love your neighbor by telling him they must die?
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  15. #225
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    My point is that you have no clues what so ever on what is hanging on my wall. None, you don't even know how many walls I have, or how many things I have hanging. There is no proof in any direction.
    I've haven't kept up with this discussion, but are we trying to establish how you can prove something by scientific means or are we trying to suggest that because Clyde doesn't have esp, god must exist?

    Is it possible to prove what you have on your walls? Is it possible to prove using scientific means how many walls you have?

    Yes or No?


    Is it possible to prove god exists?

    Yes or No?
    Joe

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