C or Java as a first language

This is a discussion on C or Java as a first language within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Hey Troll King. By the way, I read on that site you first recommended flashdaddee.com the conversation between yourself and ...

  1. #16
    CorJava
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    Hey Troll King. By the way, I read on that site you first recommended flashdaddee.com the conversation between yourself and the gentleman who invented C++. You seem to know what you are talking about. Not that I would be able to tell, since the majority of what you guys were discussing is over my head. Still, it was pretty impressive that you were able to talk to the guy in the first place. I have a hard enough time getting non-famous people to reply to my emails.

  2. #17
    Banned master5001's Avatar
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    I know of a few schools around the country that have gone to teaching java to the newbies. All biases aside, with one weeks worth of java knowledge you can make buttons, images, write files, poll the user's mouse, etc. With one weeks worth of C++ (assuming that c++ is the person's first language of course) you can do memory allocation, write small console applications, and write files. It is a good choice. [edit] that last sentence was very ambiguous, what i mean to say is: Java is a good choice[/edit]

  3. #18
    Banned Troll_King's Avatar
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    We should have a Java board here.

  4. #19
    Banned master5001's Avatar
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    JAVA is a fantastic language, yes. But we shouldn't have a java board here. This is cprogramming.com not programming.com. Besides C# is m$'s blatant rip-off of JAVA and I think the C# folks are familiar enough with java to answer questions there.

    On that topic, someone did put a link to a java message board. I'm sure they will be kind enough to re-post it for the sake of those who are interested.

  5. #20
    Banned Troll_King's Avatar
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    If they have a rip off C# board here, than there should be a Java board, or else this is nothing more than a Microsoft Programming Website (MPW). This website should not have the title cprogramming.com.

  6. #21
    Comment your source code! Lynux-Penguin's Avatar
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    C
    C
    C
    Not C++, but C
    START WITH THE CORE and then move up, sure everyone will say but C++ is better. THAT IS NOT TRUE!
    C++ has many problems that people don't want to admin, though I can't name as many as I'd like to I have talked to many people in the computer science department and they all know some errors. I started with C from a college Text called Programming Applications in ANSI C (old but one of the greatest books there are for C)
    and that IS a great book if any. I learned C from that when I was 12.

    Here is why you should learn C.
    1] Linux ( an operating system) was written in mainly C
    2] C++ is a superset of C (meaning it came from C)
    3] C has some of the most basic to advanced concepts about programming
    4] From C you can learn ANY computer language (my opinion)
    5] Its easier to spell than C++
    6] YOU JUST GOTTA LOVE THE FILE *fp , better than fstream<<
    7] C++ was written in C (ask Bell Labs if you don't believe me!)
    8] Java was written in C (might be C++ but C came before that)
    9] C is sexy
    10] C is really Sexy
    11] have you ever seen a gnu program programmed in c++, I haven't
    12] so if all the PROFESSIONAL programers whom program OS's chose C, then there must be a good reason.
    also...
    13] MS uses C++ and you don't want to grow up to program for money and purposly put bugs in so you get more money on tech-support... right?

    edit: oh and not Java either, gets too complex too soon, and after C you can learn Java from the book in days (expression-wise)
    Last edited by Lynux-Penguin; 10-22-2002 at 01:23 AM.
    Asking the right question is sometimes more important than knowing the answer.
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  7. #22
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    I think that C++ is a better language than C, however not too many compilers supported Standard C++ until very recently. Standard C++ and generic programming is leading edge but it's largely misunderstood. Educational institutions have done a poor quality job teaching C++. The fact that many legacy systems are built in C doesn't mean that it is a better development language. Bjarne Stroustrup recently told me that the STL is now being targeted by code optimizers in the newest compilers. Maybe that's not the exact wording he used, but I don't remember the exact words. Something to that effect. Personally I would much rather program in C++ than C, however there are not many high quality graphic or window libraries with bindings to Standard C++.

  8. #23
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    ...because of that I will pay attention to Java. It is a high quality system for writing internet (and windows) based solutions.

  9. #24
    CorJava
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    Originally posted by master5001
    I know of a few schools around the country that have gone to teaching java to the newbies. All biases aside, with one weeks worth of java knowledge you can make buttons, images, write files, poll the user's mouse, etc. With one weeks worth of C++ (assuming that c++ is the person's first language of course) you can do memory allocation, write small console applications, and write files. It is a good choice. [edit] that last sentence was very ambiguous, what i mean to say is: Java is a good choice[/edit]
    One week of Java knowledge for the normal person=one year of Java knowledge for me.
    Anyway, I see what you are saying.

    Lynux-Penguin,
    Although you've made many compelling arguments for the superiority of C over C++(especially the arguments pertaining to the C's sexiness), my decision was between C and Java. And I found your argument in favor of C against Java to be vague. If you would care to elaborate however, then I would certainly like to hear what you have to say.


    By the way, I am experiencing a technical issue with this board. My mouse cursor keeps blinking. Anyone else having this problem?
    I posted something about it on the tech board, but that forum seems to be as dead as COBOL right now, so I figured I would just ask now.

    (Oh ha ha ha. dead as COBOL, dear god....)

  10. #25
    Banned Troll_King's Avatar
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    The difference between C and Java is that C/C++ is a systems implementation language and Java is a solutions implementation language. They have different values.

    All major system in the world of computers are witten in C/C++. At it's core, the programmer builds from the ground up, and because of that C/C++ is mostly used by vendors that control the implementation of the operating system, or else the systems are build ontop of a standard, or architecture neutral hardware.

    Java is a system that was constructed in C/C++. It is a middleware framework that hosts virtual machine components, an interpreter, etc. Some of the components are also built underneath the operating system kernel and directly ontop of hardware.

    Java is used to build solutions that leverage systems. It is supported by libraries that offer graphics, sound, networking functionality, etc. This is not built into C/C++ (for a reason). The utility of Java is that you can rapidly create domain centric applications that are cross platform compatible, and are focused on business logic. You don't have to do very much plumbing. In C/C++ you have to do all the plumbing.

    If you are a C/C++ programmer you goal would be to build a middleware framework, or an operating system, or some platform, or a server. On the other hand, a Java programmer would build a business solution for ecommerce, or some management system that processes data and presents a nice user interface to clients.

    Java is changing. It is acquireing more C++ like additions to the langauge and some non C++ like additions such as XML. It is also maintaining a larger library. The focus is on distributed computing, and web based technology, but it's also more than that. I wish that I could say more, but I'm too new to Java. I just know what C/C++ are, and I have a sense of what Java is.

    The biggest difference is that one is a systems implementation langauge in which you work from the ground up, and the other is a solutions based language which is hosted by middlware (a framework). In Java you use tools that are already built for you. In C/C++ you build your own tools.
    Last edited by Troll_King; 10-22-2002 at 02:46 AM.

  11. #26
    CorJava
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    Thanks for the background on C/C++ and Java. It would seem that the information contained in your post confirms Java is the less complex language to learn. I know you did not necessarily intend to convey this, and I know my interpretation of the information you provided could be incorrect.

  12. #27
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    There is less chance to cause damage in Java because there is more safety mechinisms built into the middleware specification. The libraries in Java number in the range of 3,500 while there are less than a hundred or so functions in Standard C. The Java language features are less broad based than C++ because it doesn't support templates and generic programming (...yet).

    I don't know if I've even recommended anything, did I? I would say, learn C/C++ and Java together. In reality, once you become a C/C++ programmer, you will always be a C/C++ programmer. When you use a middleware langauge like Java you will be trying to understand how the system was implemented in C/C++.
    Last edited by Troll_King; 10-22-2002 at 03:16 AM.

  13. #28
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    Let me simply break it down for you. Java is going to be way more interesting and more fun, but you should also learn some serious C/C++.

  14. #29
    CorJava
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    I have a question I just thought of. This might sound stupidOkay it is stupid)


    You know how people learn some basic programming logic in pseudo-code? Well, is there some type of way one can learn some object-oriented programming logic using psuedo-code? The reason I ask such a question is that I want to really focus on the OOP stuff independent of syntax and language before I dive into Java. Could you give me some basic examples of some OOP psuedo-code, or could you give me like an exercise or something to do?







    I ate some hot-pepper cheese a couple hours ago. And I kind of like half-burp-vomitted some of it back up into my head. It felt like it went up into my nose and inside my mouth. It really burnt my nose mouth and throat and it tasted pretty bad. I drank some pop. Its okay now.

  15. #30
    Banned Troll_King's Avatar
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    It's called UML (Unified Modeling Language).

    General Link:
    < www.omg.org/uml >

    Specific Link for downloading the specification:
    < http://www.omg.org/cgi-bin/doc?formal/01-09-67 >

    Go ahead and download it. Also note the beginner tutorials at the first link.

    If you really want to learn OOP though than get: C++ Primer 3rd edtion by Lippman and Lajoie.

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