Neverending matter?

This is a discussion on Neverending matter? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; (note: my brain is in "goo" mode, as it is 12:18am right now) I was just thinking.... a lot of ...

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    Question Neverending matter?

    (note: my brain is in "goo" mode, as it is 12:18am right now)

    I was just thinking.... a lot of people are quick to say something like, "the universe is infinite", but I was speaking with my room mate, and I want to ask all of you... if you DO believe that the universe is infinite, is there a finite amount of matter in the "universe"? or is matter also infinite? Because when you think about it, if you had an infinite amount of matter in an infinite container for the matter (the universe?), wouldn't that mean.... well, er... well I don't think it makes sense.... gimmie your opinions, and tomorrow, I'll let you in on the more in-depth discussion we had.......

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    AFAIK the universe is considered to by finite. But the discussion is one of theory only as we have no current method of proving this. As all existing evidence points to the big bang theory, it would seem improbable that an infinite amount of matter would be able to fit in a finite amount of space. One could still argue that there is an infinite amount of space with a finite amount of matter inside it...

    (Its late here too so excuse any large gaping holes in the previous statements. I'm not thinking clearly at the moment.)
    "There's always another way"
    -lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

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    >As all existing evidence points to the big bang theory

    evidence?? you mean theory... anyways thats a different topic and a lot of opinion so nevermind...

    heres how it is.
    first: matter cannot be created or destroyed just transformed so yes there is technically infinite matter but not infinite usable matter.

    second: the universe is collapsing in on itself, thusly its not infinite.

    third: time is just a system of measurement therefore it is infinite such as numbers are infinite.

    >
    (Its late here too so excuse any large gaping holes in the previous statements. I'm not thinking clearly at the moment.
    <

    ditto.
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    >>second: the universe is collapsing in on itself

    This concept is just as much "theory" as the big bang.

    >>evidence??

    I did say theory not fact. I thought I'd leave that one out of this. Evidence is a perfectly legitimate word in that context.

    >>matter cannot be created or destroyed just transformed

    Well, when it becomes energy its technically not matter anymore. And as we have no way of converting energy to matter, then we most definatly have a finite amount of matter. Besides even if we were able to convert energy to matter, that could just mean that we had an infinite amount of matter to play with, as opposed to actually having an infinite amount of matter in existance.

    Just though I'd get picky at this this nasty hour of the morning. ... I should be sleepng not perusing this board.
    "There's always another way"
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    Refugee face_master's Avatar
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    >>matter cannot be created or destroyed just transformed so yes there is technically infinite matter but not infinite usable matter.

    Define usuable matter an non-usable matter for us...

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    >As all existing evidence points to the big bang theory

    There are some facts which are measured by experiments. This is not evidence, but these facts support the big bang theory. But it still is a theory, it does not proof that the big bang theory is correct.

    >the universe is collapsing in on itself, thusly its not infinite.

    Also here measured facts have resulted in a theory in which the universe will finalyy collapse. There were theories saying that the universe would infinitely expand. Other theories said the universe would get stable at some point. These are still theories and it cannot be said that the universe is finite.

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    It's full of stars adrianxw's Avatar
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    >>> have resulted in a theory in which the universe will finalyy collapse.

    The latest available measurements suggest that the universe is expanding, and that the rate of expansion is aactually increasing, i.e. has a cosmological constant greater than 1.

    Weird stuff.
    Wave upon wave of demented avengers march cheerfully out of obscurity unto the dream.

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    >The latest available measurements suggest that the universe is expanding,

    Currently it seems to expand. But it also seems that matter is coming together at several places. And if you have matter coming together, then the mass increases in a small area which means that the gravity of such an area will grow stronger and attract more matter. This could finally result in attracting all matter in the universe to one small area which will become a black hole. It's a theory, there are lot of such theories. A different theory is that mass will spread out over the universe equally so there will be no strong attracting masses. Which implies that there will be an end on the expanding and which also implies there will be no imploding? (Don't know if that's correct English, but I mean the counter word of expanding)

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    Just because ygfperson's Avatar
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    if the universe is infinite, with neverending matter, we would see no black in the night sky. just endless stars

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    Registered User Mario's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ygfperson
    if the universe is infinite, with neverending matter, we would see no black in the night sky. just endless stars
    Not really. Although it may seem at first glance. The black night we are accustomed with relates to the expansion (or whatnot) of the universe... not with its size.

    In itself, the fact that we have a black night is somewhat a strong evidence that the universe is expanding. Since the movement of objects that produce light will make the visibile light shift to the ultra-violet end of the spectrum and thus render the sky black.

    Also, even on a static universe (the two words are in itself a contradition), there's no guarantee that the sky will be whole blindly white. Light is a form of radiation. Just like any wavelenght on the spectrum... and as such can "loose qualities" when bouncing on objects and/or being affected by the gravity of celestial bodies while its travelling or simply by coliding with atoms on the void... any sum of these effects can end up by shifting the visible light to either side of the spectrum. Within a relatively big universe, this may as well mean most of the visible light gets shifted and thus produce a black sky.
    Regards,
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  11. #11
    ¡Amo fútbol!
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    no one, matter can be destroyed. Think about an a-bomb.

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    Matter is not being destroyed in an A-Bomb, it's being converted into energy. e = mc**2.

    We have ways of converting energy to matter... rather, plants do. It's called photosynthesis.

    The universe IS currently expanding. One theory is that the expansion will eventually slow down, and be pulled back into a central point. Afterwards, another big bang will occour... ad infinitum.

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    Just one more wrong move. -KEN-'s Avatar
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    >>second: the universe is collapsing in on itself, thusly its not infinite.

    I was taught it was expanding...the evidence being red shifts in the light given off by stars.

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    ok maybe i should clarify!

    IM RIGHT! YOUR WRONG!

    ok now that thats settled,

    to my statements, theory was implied but not stated and it was my intention that they be taken as theory, sorry...

    >This concept is just as much "theory" as the big bang.

    so is 99% of science... though 98% has much much more evidence suporting it.

    >Define usuable matter an non-usable matter for us...

    its fairly self explanitory, non-usable, no longer useable... depleted maybe... im not a scientist, jeez... im just stating theory...

    >The latest available measurements suggest that the universe is expanding

    ok, this really depends on who you ask... because any measuremet of the universe is complete estimation, any different group will give you a different answer.

    >if the universe is infinite, with neverending matter, we would see no black in the night sky. just endless stars

    no, due to the destruction of stars and the rate of expansion we will never see an all white sky...

    >I was taught it was expanding...the evidence being red shifts in the light given off by stars.

    whose to say what this means? i saw 8 square white pixels be construed as a planet orbiting a star, and they actually went as far as to ID what type of planet it was and give details to it existance and how long it had been there, ect...ect... they even theorized on the life that could exist on it!!! thse people are MAD!!!!!

    ::sarcastic!!!::
    oh yes, and quasars have to be made by aliens its the only explaination...
    ::sarcastic!!!::

    any way its to early for this and i have no idea what i've just typed.
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  15. #15
    Registered User Mario's Avatar
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    >>>>The latest available measurements suggest that the universe is expanding
    >> ok, this really depends on who you ask... because any measuremet of the universe is complete estimation, any different group will give you a different answer.

    While it's true that measurements may differ, they don't differ so much that all of a sudden someone measures a colapsing universe and someone else a expanding one... when such big differences exist, that's because of error. Not because of estimation

    >> due to the destruction of stars and the rate of expansion we will never see an all white sky...

    Err... no. You are wrong. Destruction of stars as nothing to do with it. You also seem to be saying now that the universe is expanding while just a little ago you were saying it was colapsing... what is it then?
    Regards,
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