middle east again...

This is a discussion on middle east again... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I know, but i was simplifying, and those traits will have arisen in the first place due to mutation, they ...

  1. #106
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    I know, but i was simplifying, and those traits will have arisen in the first place due to mutation, they just won't have been selected for or against.

  2. #107
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    I promised to respond to a question about free will but this discussion has come quite a bit off that topic since the last time I was able to post anything Does anyone still care or should I just forget about it?

  3. #108
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    Answer away.

  4. #109
    Registered User rick barclay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    835
    >Yet in his name we had the Crusades, the Spanish Inqusition, Conqisidors in South America and the 'stolen generation' in Australia ect. His followers are not blameless. <

    That's has nothing to do with what I'm saying, Novacain. Sure
    Jesus' followers initiated the Holy Crusades as a way to recover
    for Christianity that which was stolen from them by Muhammad's
    followers. Christians you must realize pre-date muslims in the
    Holy Land by more than half a millenium. The Christians who
    resided in Damascus, Alexandria, Aleppo, Jersusalem and elsewhere did nothing to provoke their Islamic conquerors, and those Christians had every right to defend and try to take back their land just the same as Palestinians claim to be doing to day.

    But like I said, your remarks, (how the hell did Austrailia get in there, anyway? ) are quite a bit off the subject of my post, which wasn't about anyone's followers, but rather about their
    leaders and how those leaders justify their positions at the head of a great religious movement. It's about Jesus vs. Muhammad and which prophet really lived up to the preachings of his respective Word. Jesus never sent an army to kill and conquer
    an unsuspecting enemy. Jesus never persecuted those who
    disagreed with him. Jesus never stole. He never took on 14
    wives and countless other concubines. He never urged anyone
    to kill and steal in God's name. Jesus never did any of those things; Muhammad did every one. And more. Jesus claimed the
    right to give His life in return for absolving humanity for its
    sinfulness. What did Muhammad sacrifice for the good of Mankind? The question I posed was simply that before one goes
    around exalting a Messenger because of the lilting flow of his message, shouldn't we also examine the intrinsic life and qualities
    of that lofty person? Ask yourself: what do you really know about
    Muhammad that justifies your belief in his words. The answer is
    probably nothing.

    rick barclay
    No. Wait. Don't hang up!

    This is America calling!

  5. #110
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    Lets see, where to being, if man has free-will then God cannot be omniscient! Let me explain: if God knows the future, then man cannot have free-will, if God knows the future it means the future is "fixed", IE. lets say God knows that in 5 minutes I will get up and go eat some bannanas, that means i don't actually have any choice at all! I will get to the point in time where I'm about to get up, and I will THINK i have a choice: I can either get up or stay sitting, but in-fact what i will do is already written! I WILL get up and eat bannanas, hence i don't really have any choice at all!

    Okay, can be hard to understand, but here it is.

    God is what you would call "extra-dimensional". He is not bound by our concepts of time and space. The terms we apply to him like "infinite" "omnipresent" etc. are indicative of this. (If you have no idea what I'm talking about, click here for a good description of higher dimensions)

    So by our thinking, there is an apparant contradiction, when we say that God both allows us free will, and yet knows the future. He doesn't really know the future, because their is no past and future for him, but merely Exisistance. (Think of the wormhole aliens from DS9) We however, are still bound by the laws that God created for us, but is not himself subject to, so our lives proceed in a linear fashion, while God encompasses everything.

    I just came up with that, all by myself If you want a better explanation I'll talk to my pastor or something and see what he says.

    btw, on the subject of higher educated people become atheists, Eintstein many times professed belief in God (I believe nearer to the end of his career) If you don't believe me I'll run to my physics class and give you an exact quotation.

    A couple more questions:
    Do athiests believe there is right and wrong?
    When (how) will science explain consciousness?
    Last edited by mike_k; 05-03-2002 at 02:52 PM.

  6. #111
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    591
    Originally posted by mike_k


    I just came up with that all, by myself
    Thats pretty much what religion is all about.

  7. #112
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    "quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by mike_k


    I just came up with that all, by myself
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thats pretty much what religion is all about."


    I came up with an explanation based on my knowledge of religion and science. What I meant by that comment was I was proud of myself for doing so at the spur of the moment.

  8. #113
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "So by our thinking, there is an apparant contradiction, when we say that God both allows us free will, and yet knows the future. He doesn't really know the future, because their is no past and future for him, but merely Exisistance. (Think of the wormhole aliens from DS9) We however, are still bound by the laws that God created for us, but is not himself subject to, so our lives proceed in a linear fashion, while God encompasses everything"

    Doesn't work, you see there are two possiblities, either time is complete that is to say time operates in the way relativity predicts to, known as "block-time", in block-time, the past the present the future are "there", and we merely experience time in a funny way, OR time is not complete the present is literally created in every instance and the future does not exist.

    God can only know the future if the future exists, in the same way that God cannot know the colour of the cat sitting on my monitor because there is no cat sitting on my monitor. So God can know the future if time is like block-time, but not if time is like quantum-time.

    Problem is, block-time inherantly contradicts free-will because the the future is mapped out.

    "I just came up with that all, by myself If you want a better explanation I'll talk to my pastor or something and see what he says. "

    You might be interested to hear that the leading Christian philosphers have conceded the point, and have accepted that God cannot know the future.

    "btw, on the subject of higher educated people become atheists, Eintstein many times professed belief in God (I believe nearer to the end of his career) If you don't believe me I'll run to my physics class and give you an exact quotation. "

    Wrong, Einstein did NOT believe in a personal God.

    "Do athiests believe there is right and wrong?"

    Atheists are as moral (or immoral) as religious people, the difference is they recognise morality for what it is: A set of social rules that have "evolved" (somewhat loose meaning of the word) to keep society together.

    "When (how) will science explain consciousness?"

    According to neurology pretty soon.

  9. #114
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    591

    Smile

    Originally posted by mike_k
    I came up with an explanation based on my knowledge of religion and science. What I meant by that comment was I was proud of myself for doing so at the spur of the moment.
    I know that ,was just playing the devils advocate Couldn't help myself being the smart ass I am.

    Do you extract all this information from the bible?

  10. #115
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    God can only know the future if the future exists, in the same way that God cannot know the colour of the cat sitting on my monitor because there is no cat sitting on my monitor. So God can know the future if time is like block-time, but not if time is like quantum-time.
    Like relativity, you have two points of reference. In God's point of reference, there is no past, is no future, is all continuos etc. He is thus able to see all.

    However, we exist in a temporal environment, which our souls (spirits) can modify through the excercising of our will.

    Next point:

    Do not judge christian theology by what the liberal pseudo-scholars say just to remain popular in the world. I don't suppose you have ever taken any courses in systematic theology (as I am currently undertaking) but the standards for christianity are pretty well defined in this field of research. It has hardly changed at all during the last 2000 and a few liberal quasi-theologans spouting something off on cnn does not constitue a generally accepted theology.

  11. #116
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    Do you extract all this information from the bible?
    i'm not spouting verses at you am I? My information comes from high school science courses I have (am) taking, the bible, religious books I have read, etc., although mostly what I am studying is more to do with defending your faith to cults. I've never really debated an atheist before, and thats why sometimes i'm taking a bit of time to answer questions.

  12. #117
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    "Wrong, Einstein did NOT believe in a personal God. "

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
    However, I concede that he didn't beleive in a personal god.

    "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

    [Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

    See, I can admit when I'm wrong!

    Einstein Quotes on Religion
    Last edited by mike_k; 05-03-2002 at 03:15 PM.

  13. #118
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    591
    No not at all. I know your wrong, just funny to see you hide behind something you call science when it really is lies and fanasies. But if that is what you want to do with your life thats ok. I just feal sorry for all weak minded people that are lured into a variaty of religions. We could argue this to the end of time (God knows if there is one ) But we would still stand where we stand right now. So I will go out and enjoy the rest of my day. Cheers.
    Last edited by Barjor; 05-03-2002 at 03:22 PM.

  14. #119
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "Like relativity, you have two points of reference. In God's point of reference, there is no past, is no future, is all continuos etc. He is thus able to see all"

    If it is continous, then you are dealing with block-time, in which case there can be no free-will:

    Time is "complete", God watches as we trace our way through time, God sees all of time, we just see the present, no free-will. We are following time's path, we have no choice.

    "Do not judge christian theology by what the liberal pseudo-scholars say just to remain popular in the world"

    The top Christian scholars, have accepted the above point. Because it is inescapeable. Either the future exists or it does not, there is no inbetween. It cannot half-exist. If it exists, there is no free-will, if it doesn't God cannot know the future.

    " It has hardly changed at all during the last 2000 and a few liberal quasi-theologans spouting something off on cnn does not constitue a generally accepted theology."

    The orthodox stuff hasn't which is why it's largely ignored by the educated populace, the orthodox stuff takes the bible as the literal word of God, which puts the universe at a 600 millionth of its actual age, talks about Adam & Eve, thinks the world was actually flooded etc. etc. That is now largely ignored, the bible is taken as an "interpretation" and the Christian/Theology scholars fight to try and fit religion into what we know of the world, that is why the pope gave his speech accepting evolution.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-03-2002 at 03:33 PM.

  15. #120
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "We could argue this to the end of time (God knows if there is one )"

    Whilst time had a beginning, in all likelyhood it will not have end, the universe will die not with a bang but with a whimper.

Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. Staying vs Leaving the Middle East
    By BobMcGee123 in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 05-01-2007, 09:15 PM
  2. New source of oil in the middle east?
    By Lionmane in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 04-02-2006, 04:59 AM
  3. the definition of a mathematical "average" or "mean"
    By DavidP in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-03-2002, 11:15 AM
  4. Binary searches
    By Prezo in forum C Programming
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-10-2002, 10:54 PM
  5. trying to sort a middle value
    By Led Zeppelin in forum C Programming
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-27-2002, 01:05 PM

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21