middle east again...

This is a discussion on middle east again... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally posted by stevey well both i can't think of any major murdering of Christians in the last 100 years. ...

  1. #31
    Prisoner of my own mind
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    203

    Re: Re: make clearer

    Originally posted by stevey


    well both
    i can't think of any major murdering of Christians in the last 100 years.
    Rwanda?? I think, nominally Christian, but not really a religous conflict, depends what we're calling murder. I presume you meant murder en masse as well.
    Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself.

  2. #32
    My diaper's full....... stevey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    759
    i think Rwanda wasn't a religous conflict more a race/tribal conflict
    it would seem to me that multi-cultural societies don't really work, or at least are very difficult. and it seems that its when the minority becomes a large minority is when it really kicks off.
    thats when the majority start to be frightened of the minority and start to blame them for everything....then they elect/sympathise with an extremist goverment and then all hell breaks lose......

    so i do think that the indiginous population should make up 90% at least of a countries population, and immigration needs controlling, then they will not feel threatened about 'losing' their country etc

    please don't take that as a racist statement
    Steve

  3. #33
    the hat of redundancy hat nvoigt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Hannover, Germany
    Posts
    3,138
    If there was some "ultimate experiment" that could detect God, and it showed that in-fact God existed, atheists and agnostics would accept it.
    The Atheists I know are as blind in their belief of no god that they would laugh at you for even suggesting such an experiment might exist. They would call it a lie and live on with their belief of God's non-existance. An Atheist is nothing more than a religious guy without a god. The same believes, the same blind faith in their own idea without accepting that it might not be the absolute truth.
    hth
    -nv

    She was so Blonde, she spent 20 minutes looking at the orange juice can because it said "Concentrate."

    When in doubt, read the FAQ.
    Then ask a smart question.

  4. #34
    Prisoner of my own mind
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    203
    Rwanda was a mix of tribal\ethnic with an effective class and distribution of power\wealth between them which didn't help.

    I think Rwanda is, due to European involvment, nominally christian. And the conflict did feature mass killings of civilians, ie christians but they weren't killed for being christian, rather for being tutsi or Hutu, the breif research I just did has already left my mind
    Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself.

  5. #35
    My diaper's full....... stevey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    759
    Originally posted by nvoigt


    The Atheists I know are as blind in their belief of no god that they would laugh at you for even suggesting such an experiment might exist. They would call it a lie and live on with their belief of God's non-existance. An Atheist is nothing more than a religious guy without a god. The same believes, the same blind faith in their own idea without accepting that it might not be the absolute truth.
    i think you are wrong totally. atheists simply will not believe in god, because there is no proof. proof it, then we'll all believe!!

    well, heres something of a conversation i had with a religous guy

    Q "why doesn't god just show himself, then we would ALL believe in Him, and then we would all be nice people etc the world would be a better place"
    A "well he sent his son"
    "aww come on!.... ...thats not evidence!!"
    "well it is to me"
    "oh ......blah blah etc "
    "well if he showed himself, then everyone would know the existance of god, there would be no need for faith"
    "exactly my point"
    "but faith is important, he is testing us with our faith, you must have faith.."
    "why must i have faith, why must i believe in something where there is no evidence, i have to accept certain things scientifically but there is evidence if you look deep enough into things..."
    "religion is different, you must have faith, thats what its all about"
    "well moslems etc have totally different beliefs to you, they have faith, but in something else"
    "yes but all religous people have faith in a divine being etc blah blah"
    "yeah but differences in religions are massive, some believe in reincarnation etc etc "
    "well they are wrong, the word of god is in the bible, that is the truth"
    "how do you know??"
    "because i have faith"
    "oh ********!"

    all arguments are pointless, you have faith or you don't.
    you will find out the truth only when you die.

    i don't believe, but am a good person regardless. so i will still go to heaven (if there is)even without believing. yes ????? in fact that i am a good person without believing only makes it better !!

    i break a few 10 commandments, but only the minor ones !!
    i do especially covert by neighbours oxen, but he does have especially nice ones !!
    Last edited by stevey; 05-02-2002 at 09:45 AM.
    Steve

  6. #36
    Unregistered
    Guest
    A few interesting points came up when I was gone. First, Clyde made the point that a survey showed a majority of highly educated people of some profession were atheist or agnostic. This I do not dispute. However, imagine if you will, a young christian that decides he wants to be a scientist. First, he must accept evolution, even if he believes it to be false. (We could argue about that, but thats kind of off the topic) Alterrnately, if he chose to be a physisist he would have to accept the Big Bang etc. everything came from nothing regardless of his view (again, a whole different topic) This can be very discouraging for someone who wants to be a scientist, because he will have to do this for many years, until his faith actually becomes eroded through the repitition and indoctrination that you accuse christians of. However, there are still christian scientists (people, not the cult) , who have made their way through their, faith intact. Interestingly, if you look at bible scholars, another field requiring very high education, you will probably find that the majority of them are religious.

    Next you (Clyde) makes the claim that religious leaders tend to supress education of their followers. This also is true. This is because they are afraid that people will start questioning the hypocrisy that they see. For example: why do we all have to tithe when we're all poor and your driving a cadillac? etc. This is because the religious leaders and institutions are more concerned with greed than with God. (which was my original point)

    A point of interest, the rennaissance started around the time that tyndale and others started the task of translating the bible into english so that the common person could understand. (this the church did NOT like)

    Oh yes, and why is there pain and suffering in the world? It's called free will. Why doesn't God reveal himself? To tell you the truth, I don't know. God is God. He doesn't justify himself to me.

    I'm still curious though, as one of my questions remains unanswered, Why must religion and education be mutually exclusive.

  7. #37
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "The Atheists I know are as blind in their belief of no god that they would laugh at you for even suggesting such an experiment might exist. They would call it a lie and live on with their belief of God's non-existance. An Atheist is nothing more than a religious guy without a god. The same believes, the same blind faith in their own idea without accepting that it might not be the absolute truth."

    Such an experiment was merely a hypothetical, in reality a conclusive experiment is not be possible.

    If a CONCRETE experiemnt were possible then you would find that 99% of all atheists would take note of it, and 99% of religious folk would ignore it. (Heavens look at how many ignore evolution!)

    Atheists adhere to a rational belief system, they believe in what has evidence supporting it, and not in what that does not. There is no "blind faith" in atheism.

  8. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    God, by his nature is an indepentant being. For you to require him to work according to your rationalization (its not fair) would require him to be dependant of you. But if he is dependant on us, he could not have created us. You can see that trying to rationalize god quickly leads to a paradox. He can do whatever he wants. It doen't matter if I believe in him, he still exists.

  9. #39
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    132
    If a CONCRETE experiemnt were possible then you would find that 99% of all atheists would take note of it, and 99% of religious folk would ignore it.
    Well, that depends on what the experiment proved
    Last edited by mike_k; 05-02-2002 at 10:26 AM.

  10. #40
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "However, imagine if you will, a young christian that decides he wants to be a scientist. First, he must accept evolution, even if he believes it to be false. (We could argue about that, but thats kind of off the topic) Alterrnately, if he chose to be a physisist he would have to accept the Big Bang etc. everything came from nothing regardless of his view (again, a whole different topic"

    Yes.... he learns about the universe and realises that what he has been told from religious leaders does not fit that facts.

    "However, there are still christian scientists"

    Indeed there are, like i said there are exceptions, but few.

    "Interestingly, if you look at bible scholars, another field requiring very high education"

    Hehe, high education? People who study an unbiased topic like Theology or anthropology at a (decent) university almost always come to the realisation that religion was made by man.

    "Oh yes, and why is there pain and suffering in the world? It's called free will. Why doesn't God reveal himself? To tell you the truth, I don't know. God is God. He doesn't justify himself to me."

    Free will.......... this is my all time FAVOURITE defense, because i have alot of experience in tearing it shreds :

    Lets see, where to being, if man has free-will then God cannot be omniscient! Let me explain: if God knows the future, then man cannot have free-will, if God knows the future it means the future is "fixed", IE. lets say God knows that in 5 minutes I will get up and go eat some bannanas, that means i don't actually have any choice at all! I will get to the point in time where I'm about to get up, and I will THINK i have a choice: I can either get up or stay sitting, but in-fact what i will do is already written! I WILL get up and eat bannanas, hence i don't really have any choice at all!

    If man has free will the future cannot exist, if the future does not exist then God cannot know it. Woot bye bye omniscience.

    Other-problems with free-will: It raises doubts over God's omnipotence: If he CAN alter man's actions, then free-will does not explain away the evil of the world: God could just have stopped it happening.

    Furthermore one can imagine a universe where everyone is "good", we can all still have this "free-will" (which blatantly cannot exist without violating all the laws of physics, not only that but we can PROVE it doesn't exist in the lab) so why isn't the world full of good people with no evil ones? Free-will contradicts Gods greatness and is not a get-out-clause anyway.


    "I'm still curious though, as one of my questions remains unanswered, Why must religion and education be mutually exclusive."

    Because education makes people better aware of the world, how it works, why it works, and that information is contrary to religious teachings. Science filters down to the public through education, more people understand that Adam and Eve cannot have existed because they understand evolution. Science and hence education forces religious beliefs to become more and more vague. That is why there are less orthodox religious people and more liberal, agnostic and atheists in better educated countries.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-02-2002 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #41
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "God, by his nature is an indepentant being. For you to require him to work according to your rationalization (its not fair) would require him to be dependant of you. But if he is dependant on us, he could not have created us. You can see that trying to rationalize god quickly leads to a paradox. He can do whatever he wants. "

    Irrelevant, i accept that IF God exists HE will not nessesarily be understandable, BUT there is no reason to believe God exists in the first place, and the better educated a people become the more they realise this.

    "It doen't matter if I believe in him, he still exists."

    That ladies and gentlemen is what we call an irrational belief.

  12. #42
    My diaper's full....... stevey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    759
    i could be wrong, but i thought the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants had accepted the Big Bang, and had also accepted evolution ?????
    Steve

  13. #43
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "i could be wrong, but i thought the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants had accepted the Big Bang, and had also accepted evolution ?????"

    They have, atleast the pope has. Though it's amusing to watch them squirm: They basically said they do believe in evolution (they accepted the big-bang quite a while ago) but at some point in the last 500,000 years God reached in and stuck a soul in hominids (can't have man a just another animal no no, otherwise all the pretentions of man being at the centre of the universe would vanish).

    On the subject of man's EGO:


    http://www.closetatheist.com/centerofcreation.htm

    I love this site
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-02-2002 at 11:41 AM.

  14. #44
    Registered User Malcar Morab's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    52

    Is there Proof to God?

    I have taken this off an atheists V. Chritstians board, (Link if interested in the more, this stuff will knock a persons socks off!!!)

    http://www.carm.org/atheism.htm

    "Science has served humanity well. Through it we have discovered countless natural laws of universe and use that knowledge to make our lives easier in every area of our existence. But to limit an atheist's proofs to the confines of what the atheist determines is one sided. To a Christian, there are experiences that science and logic cannot explain and these experiences are real. The atheist needs to recognize that we have experiences that are life changing. No mere psychological set of theories explains the changes in our lives. So please, don't mock them. Can science nail down all that exists in mind, body, and soul? No. Can it quantify the beauty of a sunset, the cooing of a baby, or the love of a man and a woman? Science and logic have served us well, but they are not the ultimate truth to all things.

    Of course, that does not mean we ignore science. In fact, we use it in our proofs for God. But to limit the playing field to your set of rules is an unfair way to start. It is mostly an attempt to initiate control and keep command of the conversation by setting the ground rules according to your criteria."

    It took me a long time to find anything on the interent about prooving God's exsistance, everything up was by people who have no clue about what they are talking about, or they could not explain it in a rational way.

    If anyone is interested in arguing this further, they have a board at the link given above where you can ask questions and you will be given logical answers. It is very, very interesting.
    ~Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.~
    -----Mark Twain

    ~God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things which should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.~
    ------Reinhold Niebuhr

  15. #45
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,420
    "To a Christian, there are experiences that science and logic cannot explain "

    Like what?

    "Can science nail down all that exists in mind, body, and soul? No"

    Yes. It already has most of it covered.

    "Can it quantify the beauty of a sunset, the cooing of a baby, or the love of a man and a woman?"

    Beauty is inherently subjective hence cannot be quantified, thats not to say science cannot explain precisiely why and how people feel what they do.

    "Science and logic have served us well, but they are not the ultimate truth to all things."

    A meaningless statement, there is only one way to approach the truth: logic, science uses logic to determine what/why/how the universe is.

    I believe that the computer infront me exists and that a pink floating elephant above my head does not : Logic

    Instead of: I believe that the computer infront of me does not exist and that a pink floating elephant above my head does: Illogic

    "In fact, we use it in our proofs for God"

    Heh, i think not.

    "But to limit the playing field to your set of rules is an unfair way to start"

    What rules? Logic? So you are arging then that whilst whilst religious belief is illogical and irrational thats ok! Riight....#

    That site of yours is most amusing especially the part where he argues against the: there is no evidence argument!
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-02-2002 at 12:51 PM.

Popular pages Recent additions subscribe to a feed

Similar Threads

  1. Staying vs Leaving the Middle East
    By BobMcGee123 in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 05-01-2007, 08:15 PM
  2. New source of oil in the middle east?
    By Lionmane in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 04-02-2006, 03:59 AM
  3. the definition of a mathematical "average" or "mean"
    By DavidP in forum A Brief History of Cprogramming.com
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12-03-2002, 10:15 AM
  4. Binary searches
    By Prezo in forum C Programming
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-10-2002, 09:54 PM
  5. trying to sort a middle value
    By Led Zeppelin in forum C Programming
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-27-2002, 12:05 PM

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21