middle east again...

This is a discussion on middle east again... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; "The problem is not religion, but people" You cannot change human nature, people are people, for better or for worse: ...

  1. #16
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "The problem is not religion, but people"

    You cannot change human nature, people are people, for better or for worse: You are always going to have mean people, power hungry people, aggressive people, etc. etc.

    What you can change are social instituitions and beliefs.

    There are two solutions to religious conflicts as a whole:

    1) Change man.
    2) Change religion.

    Only one is a feasable solution.

    "Getting back to today, remember Saddam invading Kuwait etc. What did that have to do with religion? That had everything to do with greed: he wanted the oil. "

    Very true, there are plenty of wars and conflict that are totally unrelated to religion, but there are also plenty that are.

    "People can be excused for believing that religion causes the worlds problems because all that we see indicates this"

    Not all of them, but a good portion of them, are religiously motivated.

    "Abolishing religion will do nothing to make the world a better place (Look at communism)"

    Abolishing religion cannot work, trying to oppress people into believing something else never works.

    However a world without religion would certainly be better than a world with it, and fortunately we are progressing towards that world. The more educated a people get the more secular, the less extremist, the more vague their religious beliefs become.

    The reason communism failed has nothing to do with its abolishment of religion btw, it failed because it failed to account for human nature. People will not work too hard, if working does not directly benefit themselves/ their family.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-01-2002 at 12:23 PM.

  2. #17
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    You cannot change human nature, people are people, for better or for worse: You are always going to have mean people, power hungry people, aggressive people, etc. etc.
    This is true, you or I cannot change people, but religion is founded on the belief that God can change people.

    The more educated a people get the more secular, the less extremist, the more vague their religious beliefs become.
    This is false. To make a claim you must support it with reasoning or evidence. Saying something does not make it true. If this was acceptable I could just say something like "65% of all doctors are religious" You would be hard pressed to refute this, since you could never survey every doctor. The burden of proof lies on the person making the statement. I challenge you to present any empirical evidence to back up this statement.
    Last edited by mike_k; 05-01-2002 at 02:13 PM.

  3. #18
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "This is true, you or I cannot change people, but religion is founded on the belief that God can change people."

    So you propose we rely on God to solve the problems of the world? Haha. Thats a good one.

    "This is false. To make a claim you must support it with reasoning or evidence. Saying something does not make it true"

    .....i figured it was common knowledge.

    "I challenge you to present any empirical evidence to back up this statement"

    It's blindingly obvious: There are far more atheists/agnostic people in better educated richer countries than in poorer countries with poorer education, furthermore those that are religious are far less fundamentalists and far more liberal. Do you honestly believe otherwise?

    Over time, education has improved over time religion has become less influential; the proportion of people in the 1st world who believe that "insert holy book" is the literal word of God is far less than it was 200 years ago, the power of the church is far less than it was 200 years ago. The proportion of atheists and agnostic is also alot greater than it was 200 years ago.

    The better educated a people are the less religious they are, with the extreme: In a survey published in the New Scientists 93% of the worlds "top" scientists claimed to be atheist or agnostic.

    There is a natural trend: As an example we shall take Judaism, a poorly educated man knows nothing of the world other than what he's told by his religious "leaders", believes everything he's told (Orthodox), bible's the word of God, God made the world in 7 days, Adam & Eve, etc. etc., now his son gets a better education, learns about the world, physics, evolution etc. bends his religion to what he knows about the world (Reform) decides the bible is an "interpretation" that Adam & Eve didn't really exists, that the world wasn't really made in 7 days, etc. but he can't shake off some of the stronger indocrination, he still doesn't eat pork, doesn't work on Saturday, etc. He in-turn has a son, who really gets a full class education, the religion becomes more something he was handed (Liberal), he eats pork (cause he realise's it's not "evil") he does whatever he likes on Saturday. He may or may not stick with the religion.

    The above is an exaggerated example but if applied to hundreds of generations instead of three, it does form the general trend we observe (note: there are exceptions you get intelligent religious Fundamentalists -pretty few, and thick as planks agnostics/atheists, but the trend is there). And it does make sense.

    It should be fairly obvious that liberals are more likely to becomes atheists/agnostic and/or have children that grow up to be atheist/agnostic than Reform who are in turn more likely to become atheists/agnostic and/or have atheist/agnostic children than Orthodox.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-01-2002 at 04:53 PM.

  4. #19
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    You dodo heads. Bad Bad Religio. I com Bomb Da Home of yur mom.

  5. #20
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    interesting discussion

    A hundred years ago the top discovers and scientists were God fearing people, the trend has slowly twisted itself back around to be just the oposit.

    It says in Revelations that in the last days the world will turn against God, will refute his very exsistance and abolish the Christians.

    In the past hundred years more Christians have been murdered than in the last 900 years combined.

    I just wonder how many of those people, who say there is no God, lay awake at night truly wondering.

  6. #21
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "In the past hundred years more Christians have been murdered than in the last 900 years combined"


    .......... that's because in the last 900 years, the Christians were the ones doing most of the killing.

    "It says in Revelations that in the last days the world will turn against God, will refute his very exsistance and abolish the Christians"

    The world is not "turning against" God, the people of the world are merely (gradually) realising that he does not exist.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-01-2002 at 05:40 PM.

  7. #22
    Registered User seditee's Avatar
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    voltaire was god.
    lebios

  8. #23
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    >>Go Buddists! Out of all religions they bother me the least. ... That says a lot about them, really.

    Which bothers you the most?
    I really shouldnt say... But maybe you can guess.


    >>The world is not "turning against" God, the people of the world are merely (gradually) realising that he does not exist.

    I vastly enjoyed reading a signature from someone around here with a quote stating: "If you dont preach in my school, I wont think in your church." ... Very well put.
    "There's always another way"
    -lightatdawn (lightatdawn.cprogramming.com)

  9. #24
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    hm, interesting again.

    Actually, the christians are the ones who have saved quite a few people from physical death.

    I would be interested to see some proof about your saying that is was the Christians who have done most of the killing over the centurys. Do you have a link?


    History has been twisted by so many people, you must have the facts and proof to back it up.

  10. #25
    My diaper's full....... stevey's Avatar
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    >>>In the past hundred years more Christians have been murdered than in the last 900 years combined.

    can i ask what you mean by this exactly ??? murdered ?? what events are you refering to ??
    Steve

  11. #26
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    make clearer

    Events in the past 100 years, or the past 900?

  12. #27
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    >>I just wonder how many of those people, who say there is no God, lay awake at night truly wondering.

    And I wonder if those who interpret his word and act in his name, ever question their right to do so.

    At least Muslims are taught an eye for an eye. Christians should turn the other cheek, 'for the meek shall inherit the earth' (if thats all right with the rest of you).
    Last edited by novacain; 05-01-2002 at 10:03 PM.
    "Man alone suffers so excruciatingly in the world that he was compelled to invent laughter."
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    George Best

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  13. #28
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    "And I wonder if those who interpret his word and act in his name, ever question their right to do so."

    You are saying that it is fine and jolly for a muslim or athiest to believe what they believe, but not a Christian? Why is Christianity percieved as such a threat?


    "At least Muslims are taught an eye for an eye. Christians should turn the other cheek, 'for the meek shall inherit the earth' (if thats all right with the rest of you)."

    Interesting that the Terrorists are all muslims and not Christians....has anyone else noticed this?

  14. #29
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Actually, the christians are the ones who have saved quite a few people from physical death"

    Heard of the Spanish inquisition? The witch burnings? The crusades? The percecution of heretics (see Galileo)? The percecution of homosexuals (even today)?

    I'm not sure how much that lot happened in the last 900 years (history is most certainly not my strong point) but im sure some of it did

    oh and :

    "Slavery, supposedly supported by scripture ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, just as you would obey Christ.", St.Paul, Ephesians 6:5) "

    "You are saying that it is fine and jolly for a muslim or athiest to believe what they believe, but not a Christian? Why is Christianity percieved as such a threat? "

    All relgions suvive by indocrinating their believers into NOT questioning. Questioning is bad ( = doubt) shutting up and blindly believeing what your told is good ( = faith). Atheists and Agnostics constantly question their beliefs: If there was some "ultimate experiment" that could detect God, and it showed that in-fact God existed, atheists and agnostics would accept it. If on the other hand the very same experiment showed there was no God, religious people would ignore it.

    "Interesting that the Terrorists are all muslims and not Christians....has anyone else noticed this?"

    "The terrorists?" You mean the most world-famous terrorists happen to be Islamic.

    There are Christian terrorists. (Like the IRA).

    But it brings up an interesting point why is it, that muslims tend to be more fanatical than Christians? The answer is simply one of education, Christianity has been smashed due to education, its strenght diminished, and there are far far less orthodox Christians around, Islam on the other hand is still prevelant in poorer countries with poorer education, so it is still in many ways like Christianity of 500 years ago.

    Note: It's NOT the differences in the religion, it's the differences in the social environment.
    Last edited by Clyde; 05-02-2002 at 04:49 AM.

  15. #30
    My diaper's full....... stevey's Avatar
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    Re: make clearer

    Originally posted by Unregistered
    Events in the past 100 years, or the past 900?
    well both
    i can't think of any major murdering of Christians in the last 100 years.
    Steve

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