C#: Whats bad really?

OK, there have been lots of threads about C#, and would ppl still use C# or not ,etc,etc,etc.
Ok, for all those who would stick to using C++, how about saying some concrete points as to *why*? Ms has given a lot of good reasons as to why c# is a better c++ and why should one use it. (if u wanna take a look go to ms site, too big to post here).
Now how about you guys telling some concrete easons as to why you would still continue die hard c# programming.
Pls dont destroy this thread by saying,its M$ so it sucks etc. Give some concrete reasons.

there's a c# board, which may give you better answers

You could always try them both yourself. There's no law where I'm from forcing you to only use one programming language. However, a couple of reasons why you might need C/C++ over C# is that you need the extra performance, or you're not programming for Windows (or a Windows like environment with a port.).

im only an insignificant beginnerish person but as far as i can see C# looks harder than C++. It looks very much like Java which I tried learning once but failed cos it was too complicated. I can actually get my head around C++.... mostly.

>as far as i can see C# looks harder than C++

I think you mean OO looks harder than procedural programming. C#/Java consists of most of the OO parts of C++, and adds little (apart from substantial libraries). I don't see how a simplified version of a language could be considered more complicated. If this was the case then the creators of Java/C# would have failed in what they set out to achieve.

yes, java is a harder language to learn when you are starting out by far. The way everything works is outlandishly alien to those who haven't gotten their feet wet in C++ OOP. It was strange even for me to learn after learning C++.

I may pick up a C# books soon and rifle through it to see how it is... i don't think it'llbe worth it though.

I use more than one language and I don't think that one language is better then the other. I use the language that fits my needs when I have to implement a piece of software.

Since developing embedded software is my job, C and C++ are the languages which I use most. And since a lot of our clients and a lot of new stuff in embedded systems is written in Java, I also use Java.

And since in the kind of industry where I am working C# is not used (yet), I don't use C#. Which doesn't imply that I have a negative position to that language.

>Ms has given a lot of good reasons as to why c# is a better c++
>and why should one use it.

They also call their Visual C++.NET a better C++. I don't believe in such as a better language. And ofcourse MS says C# is a better C++, they want people to use their product.


Something different, just take a look around and see how many languages were developed, are being used and how many new languages are still are being developed. Think about that fact.

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Originally posted by Aran Elus
yes, java is a harder language to learn when you are starting out by far.

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That's what I mean

For me, learning C# has been easy. My first and only language was Java. It was tough getting started but once you understand OOP it all falls into place.

As for why I will use C#, its fun. Its also very easy for me since I already know Java. I wasn't too fond of C# when it first came out but it's never a bad idea to have more than one language under your belt.

i'm guessing that the C# windows API isn't as ugly and heavy as the Swing API...

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Originally posted by Aran Elus
i'm guessing that the C# windows API isn't as ugly and heavy as the Swing API...

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Yup. I guess the appearence is more of a personal thing. But having a nice IDE like VS is much better than coding everything out like in JBuilder.

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a couple of reasons why you might need C/C++ over C# is that you need the extra performance

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Well, 2Ghz machines are out nowdays ;)

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or you're not programming for Windows

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which is very rare indeed

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MS says C# is a better C++, they want people to use their product.

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Its pretty obvious for them to do, after all they are a businness and all these things are done for money only. The sheer fact that the language is named c# and not anything else suggests that they want to fade away c++. But then they have given very precise reasons as to why c# is a better language,eg - use of "." always, everything in a class, no header files, etc. Way too much to mention here. They have based their arguments on specific reasons as to why c# is better than c++. What i really wanted was some c++ fans to say why c++ is still better than c# . But noone seems to have give me a reson for that so far. This discussion seems more to going in a 'which is harder to learn' direction.

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Something different, just take a look around and see how many languages were developed, are being used and how many new languages are still are being developed. Think about that fact.

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Take a bet. C# is gonna be used heavily;) Most of those languages are you are talkign abt are done by either individuals or small companies who dont have enough money to promots them. But when it comes to ms, things do get serious.

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i'm guessing that the C# windows API isn't as ugly and heavy as the Swing API

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C# windows Api!!!!! I really havent had the time to take a good look at c# yet but how can there be a diferent api for windows all together. I mean they can wrap the win api into something else, but they cant just change it. Porbably i am misunderstanding you here. Pls explain.

People have said why the were sticking to C++ rather than C#, you just are so slanted towards C# that you dismiss them.

Reasons to use C++ rather than C#,
It's standardized now.
Performance.
There is a lot of "legacy" C++ code.
Portability.

I see C# as much more competition for Java than it is for C++.

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PureOOLangaugeWithGarbageCollection Csharp = Java.clone();

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Well, 2Ghz machines are out nowdays

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And your point would be what?

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<or you're not programming for Windows
which is very rare indeed

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That certainly is an interesting perception of facts.

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Take a bet. C# is gonna be used heavily

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Or rather, a lot of companies developing for Microsoft are going to buy the environment just for the API tools etc and not really use C#, just like a lot of companies use VC++ just to write C.

In my opinion, C# will be touted and pushed heavily for another three years or so, until Microsoft finds a new magic development tool. And I think that Microsoft's dominace is slowly approaching an end. Developers, and more to the point, their bosses, are realizing that using Windows is not only a one-time expensive investment, but drags down their productivity (god I hate that word) over a span of several years, when they are forced to buy a new system that makes previous ones completely obsolete.

>>or you're not programming for Windows
>which is very rare indeed

I don't know the facts. But it seems to me that there are many people programming for a different platform than Windows. At the company where I'm working, there's one small department where people are writing software for the Windows platforms. And think about all those Linux-programmers.

>But then they have given very precise reasons as to why c# is a
>better language,eg - use of "." always, everything in a class, no
>header files, etc. Way too much to mention here.

Sure there are many reasons why one would use C# instead of C++. Though note that this it thinking from a certain point of view -> the Microsoft view. They have a vision about the future and .NET and C# are playing a main role in that vision. So from that point of view they can tell many reasons.

If you asked someone else who is not developing for Windows platforms, you would get reasons why to use C++ instead of C#.

Some reasons:

In small devices, there's usually a small OS running. There is no space for a Windows CE environment and .NET environment, so C# is not applicable for this kind of applications. So we keep on using C++ and C.

As far as I know, C# can be used only in the .NET environment. When using a different platform, then .NET will not run and so you can't use C#.

There are many tools for software development in C++ and there are a lot of free tools. Free compilers, debuggers etc.

C# and .NET Runtime are in many ways the same as Java and J2EE. I know that Java and J2EE are not very useful for low level programming, so I assume that C# and .NET Runtime are also not useful for low level programming.

C# and .NET are relatively new. C++ is much older and there is a lot of knowledge and experience with using C++ and its tools.

>C# is gonna be used heavily Most of those languages are you
>are talkign abt are done by either individuals or small companies
>who dont have enough money to promots them. But when it
>comes to ms, things do get serious.

C# will sure be used heavily, but in certain kinds of industry.

So when it comes th MS, things do get serious? Languages like assembly, Java, C, C++, Basic, Lisp, Haskell and many more aren't serious?

Sure, there are many languages which are developed by individuals, they are not used much. Small companies that develop their own language know that they don't have the money to promote their language like MS does. So they developed their language for different purposes, probably for a certain device they have developed.

Promotion is not the main thing of the succes of a language. It are the programmers who decide if a langauge is useful or not. If a lot of programmers say: C# has no new advantages to us, then it will not be a succes. This is independent from how much money MS puts in its promotion. Ofcourse MS also knows that it are the people who have to work with it are the ones who make it a succes or not, so I guess C# is useful. But in certain kinds of industry ofcourse.

>But when it comes to ms, things do get serious.

BTW, C and C++ are not developed by MS. So C and C++ programmers are not serious programmers?