View Poll Results: What after life do you believe in?

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  • Heaven/Hell

    15 31.25%
  • Come back as an animal

    1 2.08%
  • Come back as a human

    2 4.17%
  • Nothing just nothing you just are nothing, no thinking, well you know

    28 58.33%
  • You live in a blank void

    2 4.17%

After life?

This is a discussion on After life? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; "This is actually quite wrong" You do not know what you are talking about. "The more we know, the faster ...

  1. #76
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "This is actually quite wrong"

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    "The more we know, the faster we change. Mankind's development rate has basically been standing still for thousands of years, but just think how much it has been changing in the last 100 years. And it'll just go faster. Just because our physical appearance will take some more time (but we might integrate ourselves with machines etc.), doesn't mean that we aren't changing psychologically relatively fast. "

    We improve techonologically, but our GENES have remained virtually unchanged for the thouands of years. The physical structure of our brain is SOLEY determined by our genes.

    Society does change, human nature does not.

    "Just to give an idea to consider: I read somewhere that just 100 years afo the IQ of an average person would be far lower than the IQ of a person of today"

    That is because IQ and intelligence in general is very suseptible to mal-nutrition. 100 years ago nutrition was poor, malnutrition was rife hence the average IQ was substancially lower.

    "likely due to the amounts of information that is available today"

    Bzzzt, wrong answer. It's cause we have food.

    "Fear is an advantage for a primitive animal living in a primitive environment, not for an human being living in a civilized society"

    Nonsense again, fear is an advantage to all animals without it you are more-likely to do incredably dangerous things and hence more likely to die.

    "We are not discussing physical strenght here. I've never heard of a healthy young person dying of fear, but I do suspect/know that animals can do so. "

    Strength? When people "die of fear" they are actually dieing of a heart attack, it can happen to humans and animals. It is fairly rare in young mammals whether human or not human.

    ". We humans still have fear, basically for no reason, that's why I believe that it will disappear in the future"

    What drivel, EVEN IF fear did not convey an advantage (which it does) it would take HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years for humans to lose it.

    "The same theory counts for other emotions. "

    Emotions including fear are HUGELY beneficial to the human race, they aren't just advantages they are so key that without them humanity would probably die out.

    "Emotions can be seen as internal laws in the individual, in the same way that one would set up some sort of internal laws in an artificial neural net"

    ........ emotions are not laws, they are drives.

    "In order to rationally advance, the neural net must adapt to the truth of the world outside, instead of creating internal lies (religions etc.). "

    What? Advance? And what prey does advance mean? And internal lies? As opposed to what? External ones!?

    "And as far as I know, when understanding the physical laws that everything follows (including oneself), there are no room for emotions. "

    What? Of course there is room for emotions when understanding the physical laws!!! What a rediculous statement, what do you think Einstein, Newton, Darwin were all robots!?

    "In todays society, mankind would destroy itself without love, sympathy etc. agreed. I was however just speculating about the future - by then mankind/some other life might be able to live without emotions. "

    I cannot invisage any way that mankind or any other form of complex life could exist without emotions, furthermore man-kind would could never evolve into a species that existed without emotions even if such a species were possible (which it so isn't anyway)

    "But they're all seeking answers, most of them in their own dream-worldsmaybe"

    Says who?

    "I consider emotions to be irrational beliefs"

    A rediculous statement, they are not beliefs at all, since they do not say anything about the nature of the universe.

    "just like religons are lies"

    Religion makes specific claims about the nature of the universe which are false, emotions make no claims whatsoever.

    "for example love or happiness, and you should realize that they doesn't exist in the physical world outside either."

    They don't exist in the physical world? Of course they don't exist in the physical world! They aren't objects you know! They are sensations, that's all.
    Last edited by Clyde; 04-15-2002 at 04:41 PM.

  2. #77
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "This is my personal opinion, but I think that "Clyde" is a close-minded arrogant SOB who believes he knows everything and his reasoning is unquestionable. BTW, Clyde,
    "Igonorance is bliss." - Joe Pantoliano."

    Close-minded because i'm not hugely ignorant of the workings of the world, because I only believe in what is logical, because i want to get the truth and not fantasy, or perhaps close minded because i can demolish religious arguments fairly easiy.

    BTW, Jinx
    "Ignorance might be bliss, but it's still ignorance" - Clyde

  3. #78
    Banned frenchfry164's Avatar
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    if you wanted a reliable answer you would go to a board where all types of people post. Posting on this board would probably come with the main reply being "You are nothing" after you die. I believe that too.

    Computers is a science, and talking to people who make things of a science will give you a scientific answer.

    You know what would be bad? If when you "die" you don't really die. I know how the brain operates the organs and stuff, but if we really do have some kind of "life force", or "soul", maybe our soul stays in our body. So when people are organ donors, umm... it would like, hurt verrry bad. Oops, when you die your nerves die too. Umm, you would at least see some really gory scenes of yourself. Or if you were buried, you would be bored forever.

    That isn't what I believe, but it would be bad if that's what really happens.

    One thing I don't like about religions is they don't include animals, they only include humans. We ourselves are animals in a sense. Why shouldn't we die just the same as them. We are all the same, blood, brain, and various other organs (except one-celled organisms, etc.).

    PS: Here is the programmers theory of life (just a joke)

    Aliens have programmed a game, and we are the NPC's in that game. The reason there is different personalities of people is because different programmers program differently. Each object in our "universe" is programmed by a alien programmer. The reason that a lot of people share the same things as others is because sometimes code is reused in different programs. The reason humans are smarter than animals is because better AI is used in some programs, and they turn out being "human". The reason people have certain talents is from different things programmed into our program. If the programmer spent a lot of time working on the basketball part of a program, they will be good in basketball, as long as they discover this. The reason for the "miracles" that happen in the world, is the aliens don't want us to get intelligent enough to figure out how they were formed. It makes people get confused, and start concentrating on religions, which will take away our efforts to discovering the origin. People will think they have the answer, so they won't concentrate on discovering origins of life.

  4. #79
    Registered User Sekti's Avatar
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    hey Clyde

    I like your thoughts and thanks for the link
    +++
    ++
    + Sekti
    ++
    +++

  5. #80
    _B-L-U-E_ Betazep's Avatar
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    >>>Most people's opinion's on this topic are worthless. Since they are basically re-iterating what they were told when they were young, and the people who told them are just reiterating what they were told when they were young and the people that told them.... you get the picture =)<<<

    I have no idea where this post goes to after page one, but I am not going to read all six pages.

    On the contrary, to the above statment, I have changed my phillosophies many times throughout my life. I guess I am a "What Dreams May Come" kinda guy.

    I believe you have a final dance on this planet, and then when you let go, you go to a place of your own creation within the afterlife.

    It isn't heaven or hell or reincarnation or etc. It is what you make of it. Such is life in most cases.... what you make of it.

    I think that life is training for death.

    IMO anyway....
    Blue

  6. #81
    Christian
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    Clyde your logic is flawed, as religion breaks people into 3 parts Body Mind or heart and their soul. The soul is what continues on after you die, as there is no evidence disproving or proving the existence of a soul. One cannot take lack of evidence on one side, and claim the other is right.

    Series there is also a slight problem in your logic, as fear makes civilized society possible. If one did don't have fear of consciences, what would prevent them from doing something.
    I shall call egypt the harmless dragon

    -Isaiah 30.7

  7. #82
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Clyde your logic is flawed"

    Oooh, batter up.

    "as religion breaks people into 3 parts Body Mind or heart and their soul."

    Shame only one of them really exists (mind = body). Strrrrrrrriiike ONE!

    "The soul is what continues on after you die, as there is no evidence disproving or proving the existence of a soul"

    For the "soul" to exist neurology must be wrong, not only that even the most basic principles of physics must be wrong, hence all the evidence for physics and neurology is evidence against the soul: Strike TWO!

    "One cannot take lack of evidence on one side, and claim the other is right."

    Rationality decrees that we build up a picture of reality based upon positive evidence that stuff exists NOT on lack of evidence that stuff does not exist. If as you seem to be saying the latter is actually valid, then we would all go around believeing in fairies, giant invisable hovering bulls, that we were in the Matrix, etc. etc. because none of them have evidence against them. Anyway like i said there is evidence against a soul.

    Strike THREE! Your out!

  8. #83
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "I believe you have a final dance on this planet, and then when you let go, you go to a place of your own creation within the afterlife"

    And what, pray, lead you to that conclusion?

  9. #84
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    We improve techonologically, but our GENES have remained virtually unchanged for the thouands of years. The physical structure of our brain is SOLEY determined by our genes.
    The genes are pretty uninteresting. Our brain is very dynamic, so it's possible for the beliefs inside to change without the need for a change of the genes. And the change of the beliefs are in fact physical changes in the brain.
    Society does change, human nature does not.
    The changing society is obviously a result of the changing human nature.

    Nonsense again, fear is an advantage to all animals without it you are more-likely to do incredably dangerous things and hence more likely to die.
    With understanding and intelligence there is no need to do dangerous things, and there is no need for fear.

    What drivel, EVEN IF fear did not convey an advantage (which it does) it would take HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of years for humans to lose it.
    You underestimate the ability for humans to rapidly change, if one set a goal, he can be entirely "reprogrammed", so to speak, in just a few years.

    I'm not saying that it would work, nor happen today, but in the future.
    The situations for when emotions are invoked can be observed with intelligence, and the human brain can be drasticly changed with this knowledge. To no longer be controlled with instincts.

    And internal lies? As opposed to what? External ones!?
    There are no external lies. Lies exists internally in an individual.

    Of course there is room for emotions when understanding the physical laws!!! What a rediculous statement, what do you think Einstein, Newton, Darwin were all robots!?
    They were more "robot-like" than the average person.

    I cannot invisage any way that mankind or any other form of complex life could exist without emotions, furthermore man-kind would could never evolve into a species that existed without emotions even if such a species were possible (which it so isn't anyway)
    Emotions is one way to control life.

    Do you really think that evolution came up with the one and only possible complex type of life there is (emotion based)? Of course there are other solutions, and other methods to control life.
    "But they're all seeking answers, most of them in their own dream-worlds maybe"

    Says who?
    A person who is trying to be one the world, thus without following his own subjective emotions just to feel good.

    Are you really against me regarding all I say? It's likely that lies are involved if you're instinctively just having the opposite views about all I say.

    "for example love or happiness, and you should realize that they doesn't exist in the physical world outside either."

    They don't exist in the physical world? Of course they don't exist in the physical world! They aren't objects you know! They are sensations, that's all.
    And they include objects in the physical world, such as humans. To apply such a concept (love) at human-objects, has to be just as much of a lie as a to apply a religon at a world.

    Sentaku

    Series there is also a slight problem in your logic, as fear makes civilized society possible. If one did don't have fear of consciences, what would prevent them from doing something
    Knowledge of the result, instead of fear.

  10. #85
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    Clyde, Sentaku is right, your logic is flawed.
    You argue that mind=body. Your own basic neurology proves this is not the case.
    Everyone's brain is almost exactly the same, there is a margin for error in the neuron connections, but this is very small or else the brain simply would not connect to the nervous system properly. However everyones mind is not the same. The way your mind works although based on the same chemicals and connections, is completly differant from mine (atleast it will be until the commies take over). This means there is another layer of abstraction between how we actually feel and the chemical reactions taking place inside our brains.
    Analogy time. It seems here that the brain is acting very similar to a processor (this is after all a programming board so I feel this view is some what appropriate). Through an obvoius design advantage the human brain has ceased to function as a preprogrammed device and instead allows its self to adapt, without dangerous physical mutation. With out this we would still be stuck as cavemen (interesting side note, our brains are almost exactly the same as those of our cave dwelling ancestors, we have not gotten any smarter, just the way we see the world is different).
    As you can see notthing is quite as straight forward as you imagine it to be. While nerologists understand which bit of your brain does what, they are yet to have any idea how it all fits together to make a living, breathing, thinking human being.
    As you can see your own explaniation does not describe in any way how this layer of abstraction is acheived, basically you just assume that it works the way other things do. While yes this does seem the most reasonable conclusion, by your own argument of reason and logic, no argument you have put forth validates your own view anymore than my own theory of reincarnation and back hair.
    If you own a piece of land and there is an volcano on it and it ruins a
    nearby town, do you have to pay for the property damage?

  11. #86
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "The genes are pretty uninteresting"

    They make us what we are, hardly "uninteresting".

    "Our brain is very dynamic, so it's possible for the beliefs inside to change without the need for a change of the genes"

    That's true, but emotions are not beliefs, they are emotions.

    "And the change of the beliefs are in fact physical changes in the brain."

    That's a weird way of looking at it, because the structure of the brain doesn't change, information is "written" as arrangement's of neuron's, when you information is recorded in the brain new connections are made, the overall structure does not alter.

    "The changing society is obviously a result of the changing human nature. "

    Uh, no it's not, change's in society are due to increased technology, and increases in knowledge, human nature remains exactly the same, people have all the instincts, all the feelings, all the drives, that they did 10,000 years ago. Human nature is only dependant on its genes, hence the name human NATURE, heard of the NATURE vs. nurture debate?

    "With understanding and intelligence there is no need to do dangerous things, and there is no need for fear. "

    Wrong, it is only intelligent to avoid dangerous things if you FEAR death, if you do not FEAR death, then you do not care whether you die or not. Intellect is powerless without a direction.

    "You underestimate the ability for humans to rapidly change, if one set a goal, he can be entirely "reprogrammed", so to speak, in just a few years"

    Maybe i'm not getting through here: Emotions are hardwired into the brain (we KNOW some of the mechanisms they are based on, we can see the region of the brain that controls them,) in the same way that breathing is hardwired into the brain. The ONLY way these could be removed is though either genetic modification or physically chopping that part of the brain out (which is basically what they do when they lobotomise mental patients). Beliefs can change emotions cannot, thats why we have EXACTLY THE SAME emotions that human 10,000 years ago had.

    "I'm not saying that it would work"

    Good, cause it wouldn't.

    "The situations for when emotions are invoked can be observed with intelligence, and the human brain can be drasticly changed with this knowledge"

    Intelligence has nothing to do with emotion, nothing AT ALL to do with emotion, the most intelligent man who ever lived would be totally powerless to the feelings of love, and any other emotion. People are of course capable of ignoring their emotions, that however is something quite different.

    "There are no external lies. Lies exists internally in an individual."

    What?

    "They were more "robot-like" than the average person. "

    Einstein, Darwin and Newton were more "robot-like" than the average person.......... wow, that sets a new record for nonsense. Congratulations I thought the guy with the "invisable beings" had it, but you just wooped him with that clanger.

    "Emotions is one way to control life"

    Control? They do nto "control" life at all. Nothing "control's" life. Life IS life, that's it.

    "Do you really think that evolution came up with the one and only possible complex type of life there is (emotion based)? Of course there are other solutions, and other methods to control life. "

    ..... really? Find me an animal that doesn't have emotions then........ oh wait there are none. Emotions are merely drives, without them we would not REPRODUCE, we would not care if we died, even if we did reproduce (which we wouldn't) we would not look after our offspring so they would die.

    "A person who is trying to be one the world, thus without following his own subjective emotions just to feel good. "

    What? That statement makes no sense, what does "following" your emotions mean? What the hell is trying to be "one with the world" what utter drivel. Life is here to multiply, that's it.

    "Are you really against me regarding all I say?"

    What you say doesn't make an iota of sense, it sounds like you've merged some new-age nonsense with a poor understanding of science and formed your own horribly floored mish-mashed philosophy.

    "It's likely that lies are involved if you're instinctively just having the opposite views about all I say"

    Instinctively!? It's not instinct it's the fact that you're talking drivel. Emotions are A: Nessesary for complex life B: An integral part of the brain that cannot simply be removed by social engeneering.

    "And they include objects in the physical world, such as humans. To apply such a concept (love) at human-objects, has to be just as much of a lie as a to apply a religon at a world"

    A lie, has to be a desciption of the universe that is false, for example, if I said the world was flat, that would be a lie, if i said Australia is located two miles east of Berlin that would also be a lie.

    Emotions do NOT in any way describe the universe therefore they are not lies. They are a RESPONCE, I am feeling happy, does not in any way describe the universe.

    I love person X, does NOT describe person X, it descibes my RESPONCE to them.

    "Knowledge of the result, instead of fear."

    And how exactly are you going to evaluate the result? You can't intelligence cannot evaluate anything, morality is based on emotion it is certainly NOT based on intellect, without morality society would fold. GAME OVER.

  12. #87
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "You argue that mind=body. Your own basic neurology proves this is not the case.
    Everyone's brain is almost exactly the same"

    The structure of the brain is certainly very simlar yes......

    " However everyones mind is not the same. The way your mind works although based on the same chemicals and connections, is completly differant from mine (atleast it will be until the commies take over). "

    Same chemicals...... yes..... same connections..... NO

    Two hard-drives can have identical structure and hold completely different information.

    The rest of your argument lies on the faulty premise that because the physiology of people's brain's are similar their personalities would have to be.

    We know that the personality is a property of the brain. When people get brain damage in specific regions of the brain their personality can completely change; they can be turned into a completely different person.

    For their to be a soul neurology would have to be wrong, all the discoveries we have made that show over and over and over, that the brain controlls everything, every property of the mind can be shown to correspond to part of the brain, but the real killer here is that for the soul to exist physics has to be wrong, the most basic laws of physics on which all technology and mechanics is based has to be utterly wrong.

    My logic is flawless, its not a coincidence that my views are echoed, by rationalist all round the world.

  13. #88
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    >>Same chemicals...... yes..... same connections..... NO

    Lets apply a little logic to the situation.
    The brain works on electric and hormonal signals.
    These electric signals travel through connections between sections of the brain.
    The hormonal signals are distrubuted through fluid in the brain.
    The brain being modular and structured as you have described it to be means that in order for each section to function properly, it must be properly connected to each other section of the brain.
    As you describe memory can be a little different, however it still must connect to the same part of the brain or it will end up being interprated as something else altogether, such as the sense of touch in your right leg.
    Just like if I pulg my scsi cord in upside down, my hard disk will stop working pretty quickly.

    >>We know that the personality is a property of the brain. When people get brain damage in specific regions of the brain their personality can completely change; they can be turned into a completely different person.

    Yes just like if I accidently take the microcode decoder out of my processor, it'll begin to interprate instructions differently.

    >>the brain controlls everything, every property of the mind can be shown to correspond to part of the brain

    Thats where the pc analogy comes in. Who controls who, the program or the chip it runs on?
    Sure the cpu controls the rest of the computer, but without a valid program to run, you'll spend an eternity in windows.
    If you own a piece of land and there is an volcano on it and it ruins a
    nearby town, do you have to pay for the property damage?

  14. #89
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Lets apply a little logic to the situation."

    Fine by me.

    "The brain works on electric and hormonal signals. "

    Ok...

    "These electric signals travel through connections between sections of the brain"

    Ok.......

    "The hormonal signals are distrubuted through fluid in the brain"

    Not really.

    "The brain being modular and structured as you have described it to be means that in order for each section to function properly, it must be properly connected to each other section of the brain. "

    Not really, the different parts of the brain are not reliant on each other, people with brain damage only have the loss of the function associated with the area that was damaged.

    "As you describe memory can be a little different, however it still must connect to the same part of the brain or it will end up being interprated as something else altogether, such as the sense of touch in your right leg."

    Memory has a specific are of the brain yes.....

    "Yes just like if I accidently take the microcode decoder out of my processor, it'll begin to interprate instructions differently."

    .... and... ?

    "Thats where the pc analogy comes in. Who controls who, the program or the chip it runs on? "

    The PC analogy does not fit well with the brain, because there is no "CPU" in the brain, there is no central point where all the intructions get processed, the brain is CPU and memory, rolled into one. The brain works a bit like a neural net, except whilst neural nets have virtual "neurons" that are calculated by the computer hardware , the brain has real ones. There is no real hardware-software distinction in the brain.

    "Sure the cpu controls the rest of the computer, but without a valid program to run, you'll spend an eternity in windows."

    The "program" is the information hard-encoded into the brain via the arrangement of neurones.

    You have not made a counter point, you're entire argument was based upon the faulty assumption that because two brains are very simlar physiologically they must therefore, be similar from a personality viewpoint. That is invalid. The area's of the brain in two individuals are made up of the same stuff, but the connections between the neurones are different, resulting in different personalities, in much the same way, that two hard-drives can be made up of the same stuff but hold completely different informaiton.

  15. #90
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    >>The PC analogy does not fit well with the brain, because there is no "CPU" in the brain, there is no central point where all the intructions get processed, the brain is CPU and memory, rolled into one. The brain works a bit like a neural net, except whilst neural nets have virtual "neurons" that are calcualted by the computer , the brain has real ones. There is no real hardware-software distinction in the brain.

    Nope there you are just plain wrong. This is where the pc analogy really stengthens its self. Modern processors have both an onboard memory buffer and can easily be divided into numerous sections of what does what. Eg, there is one section called the ALU (arithmetic logic unit, I bet you can guess what that bit does). And there's another that decodes instructions as they are recalled from memory.

    Now lets have a look at how decisions are made.
    The human brain is a learning machine.
    That means that based on previous inputs, it will make the best possible decision in any circumstances.
    Now if someones personality (keeping in mind that a large part of someones personality is the way they react in situations) is based on the way thier neurons are connected, they wouldn't really learn all that fast now would they?
    Yes just like my processor with the defective decoder will behave strangly, the way a persons' brain is wired does play a part in thier personality, but it is by no measure the difinitive factor.
    If you own a piece of land and there is an volcano on it and it ruins a
    nearby town, do you have to pay for the property damage?

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