View Poll Results: What after life do you believe in?

Voters
48. You may not vote on this poll
  • Heaven/Hell

    15 31.25%
  • Come back as an animal

    1 2.08%
  • Come back as a human

    2 4.17%
  • Nothing just nothing you just are nothing, no thinking, well you know

    28 58.33%
  • You live in a blank void

    2 4.17%

After life?

This is a discussion on After life? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; >>Science makes it abundantly clear that the brain is little more than a complex biological computer. Ergo no room for ...

  1. #16
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    >>Science makes it abundantly clear that the brain is little more than a complex biological computer. Ergo no room for an afterlife, pity really.

    And how does it do that?
    Science doesn't even tell us how this complex biological computer manages to create our own self awearness, let alone what happens to it after it ceases functioning in ways we have observed.
    If you own a piece of land and there is an volcano on it and it ruins a
    nearby town, do you have to pay for the property damage?

  2. #17
    Refugee face_master's Avatar
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    According to the poll, a couple people said that they beieve that when you die you live in a blank void. Whats that all about? What type of religion/community teaches that? If they figured it out for tbemselves, they musn't be very immaginative...

  3. #18
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "And how does it do that?
    Science doesn't even tell us how this complex biological computer manages to create our own self awearness, let alone what happens to it after it ceases functioning in ways we have observed."

    You expect me to teach you the field of neurology over a message board?

  4. #19
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    No just the small section that has to do with the point at wich the brain dies and scientists prove that there is no afterlife.
    If you own a piece of land and there is an volcano on it and it ruins a
    nearby town, do you have to pay for the property damage?

  5. #20
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "No just the small section that has to do with the point at wich the brain dies and scientists prove that there is no afterlife."

    ............... neurology has shown that the brain IS "us", that there is no seperation between mind and brain. Furthermore science as a whole REJECTS the notion that there could ever be a separation between mind and brain, as it would break the laws of physics.

    When you die, the brain ceases to function. Hence you cease to function. Here are someone else's words that offer quite a good explanation.

    "Materialism would suggest that the conscious, aware "Self" is established by the structures and processes of the brain. When these structures are destroyed and the processes cease, the conscious, aware "Self" ceases to exist. Similarly, a television picture requires a functioning television set in order to exist; if the TV is broken, no television picture can exist. In this sense, the conscious, aware "Self" would be akin to the television picture, not the TV set itself. When the TV is functioning, a television picture results; when the TV set ceases to function, there is no picture in that TV set.

    Everything we know about biology and neurology and how the brain works points toward the likelihood that this marvelous organ contains everything needed to establish a conscious, aware "Self." In fact, the case can be made that the consciousness is necessary in an organism that survives by its mobility, that organisms which evolved to be mobile necessarily evolved the ability to be consciously aware -- however dim that awareness may be in the simpler organisms such as worms."

    Now you probably are going to say that all the neurology profs. and biology doctorates are wrong, and hell yea the laws physics can be broken, magic can happen... blah blah blah, but consider this: We can observe experimentally that personality is a property of the brain and nothing more; people who have brain damage in a specific region of the brain get complete personality changes, so when your brain dies, your personality (which defines who "you" are) dies with it.

    "The prospect of personal annihilation is staggeringly frightening to most. Many of us would prefer almost any route other than to be given a convincing argument that death is final. In fact, many people will still opt to find ways to justify believing in the more comfortable and more comforting myth, even if shown that annihilation is extremely likely and that other possibilities are very unlikely. They can see it but they won't buy it. Of course: if a loved one is missing, people will ponder just about any scenario besides the prospect of her demise, clinging unashamedly to any hope of her survival. If diagnosed with a grave medical condition, we tend to think that something will happen and we will become one of those amazing success stories in the annals of medicine. This is so natural to the human that many will tell you that the route of "denial" is healthier if one is given such a diagnosis. But the face of the inevitable watches in pitiless consumption as we whistle in the dark valley of the shadow of death"

    Oh and incidently we know exactly how and why, people have strange experience's close to death. When the brain is dying the neurones begin firing randomly and large levels of endorphins and other "natural pain killers" are released. The random firing of neurones in the brain creates the impression of a white light in the centre of a person's vision (basically because the greatest concestration of neurones is in the centre of the brain) , and the endorphins released makes them feel relaxed, happy, loved, and also can give people a "floating sensation" etc..... sound familiar?
    Last edited by Clyde; 04-14-2002 at 07:11 AM.

  6. #21
    Fingerstyle Guitarist taylorguitarman's Avatar
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    Pick a better analogy.
    Similarly, a television picture requires a functioning television set in order to exist; if the TV is broken, no television picture can exist. In this sense, the conscious, aware "Self" would be akin to the television picture, not the TV set itself. When the TV is functioning, a television picture results; when the TV set ceases to function, there is no picture in that TV set.
    Regardless if the TV works, the picture still exists (it is broadcasted), we're just not able to observe it.

    The problem with science is that it is based on observations and inferences from those observations. Remember the world was flat for a time? "Science" has been wrong before. Science is merely a set of rules to explain things that seem to hold true. Every now and again someone comes up with a better set of rules, but it would be silly to think that the set of rules we "know" and use now are completely correct.
    Everything we know about biology and neurology and how the brain works points toward the likelihood that...
    Exactly. The likelihood. There still exists the possibililty that we're wrong.
    If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to see it, do the other trees make fun of it?

  7. #22
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Regardless if the TV works, the picture still exists (it is broadcasted), we're just not able to observe it."

    The picture doesn't exist, by definition it doesn't exist. The cathode ray tube might still be spewing out electrons, but the picture does not exist.

    "The problem with science is that it is based on observations and inferences from those observations"

    Ah yes, here we go, the "science has got wrong" post.

    " Remember the world was flat for a time? "Science" has been wrong before"

    For a start it is a myth that "science" ever thought the world was flat, the ancient Greeks knew the world was round thousands of years ago.

    However science can be wrong, its greatest strength is that it adapts, if theory is proved wrong, it is either chucked or modified. Having said that, with the gargantuan amount evidence in favour of modern neurology and the fact that any alternative would violoate even the most basic laws of physics, means this particular piece of science is about as likely to be disproved as gravity.

    So..... all the evidence and theory points one way...but you choose to believe the opposite, *searches for quote*... ah yes:

    "The prospect of personal annihilation is staggeringly frightening to most. Many of us would prefer almost any route other than to be given a convincing argument that death is final. In fact, many people will still opt to find ways to justify believing in the more comfortable and more comforting myth, even if shown that annihilation is extremely likely and that other possibilities are very unlikely"

    "Exactly. The likelihood. There still exists the possibililty that we're wrong"

    Yes indeed, and there exists the possiblity we are in the Matrix..... thing is people don't believe that because they deem it rediculously improbable, about as probable say as all the laws of physics and everything known about neurology being completely wrong....

    But its ok, i understand, denial is great.
    Last edited by Clyde; 04-14-2002 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #23
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    To settle all of these religous discussions:

    Even Einstein, one of the world's greatest scientists, said there had to be a god because the universe is just so enormous, mysterious, and he couldn't devise a way all of this could have happened.

  9. #24
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Even Einstein, one of the world's greatest scientists, said there had to be a god because the universe is just so enormous, mysterious, and he couldn't devise a way all of this could have happened."

    ....... Einstein thoroughy REJECTED the idea of a biblical "God" that was omnipotent omniscient, etc. etc. He did however think there was some underlying order in the universe. The reason is that many underlying principles seem "finely tuned" ie. if the nuclear strong force was a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit stronger, then protons would bind to protons and what we would have is a very different (and fairly dull) universe completely incapable of supporting life.

    However, Quantum theory combined with the anthropic principle have scuppered that line of reasoning. Quantum theory shows that there could be a near infite number of universe's each with a slight variation in physical laws/properties, the anthropic principle points out that given that we exist, the universe we exist in is bound to have properties that support intelligent life.
    Last edited by Clyde; 04-14-2002 at 11:26 AM.

  10. #25
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    In my tweaked little mind, this is how I picture it...Picture a combonation of of the Matrix and Jet Li's the One. Our minds percieve only what we "know" can exist in some preproggramed method we were born into. Other beings exist all around us, but our brain cannot perceive them because they are in a different state or "wave length". This is similiar to the way that we cannot dectect microwaves or alpha waves or beta waves. In some cases, I have read that some people have actually been able to listen to a radio for a long period of time on one station, then turn it off and still be able to "hear", in another form of perception, and tell what is playing 10-20 minutes later. The cause of this from the certain researchers performing this experemint was that once the brain recieves information in one way for long enough to figure out how to change it into sensable data, then an understandable perception results. Sooo...When we die, we simply change state into another wave length were we are reincarnated into ourselves as the same being only on another wave length. This, I suppose, happens constantly forever until we reach a Nirvana, a place kinda stuck inbetween waves, I think.
    Weeel, itss aboot tieme wee goo back too Canada, eeehy boyss.

  11. #26
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    " Our minds percieve only what we "know" can exist in some preproggramed method we were born into"

    What do you mean by "percieve"? We can directly sense stuff, using our 5 senses and we can picture stuff in our heads that is based on what we have previously seen: IE. a blind man can not picture red, but someone who has seen red can.

    On the other hand, we can understand, and model things that we cannot picture in our heads: see quantum mechanics and relativity.

    "Other beings exist all around us, but our brain cannot perceive them because they are in a different state or "wave length". "

    .... We "percieve" things based on our 5 senses, and there are other beings all around us...... they're called animals.

    "This is similiar to the way that we cannot dectect microwaves or alpha waves or beta waves"

    Our eyes can only detect light which is radiation with wavelength 400-700 nm, almost all solids absorb some radiation in that limit, it's concieveable that if we got a "perfect" crystal and stuck it in a vacum it would be "invisable" but we could still sense it by touch, or bounce things off it, or (if we really wanted to) taste it, etc. Alpha waves......... are either patterns the brain makes and not really waves at all, or you could be refering to alpha particles which are chucked out when certain elements decay, beta waves/particles..... are just electrons.

    " In some cases, I have read that some people have actually been able to listen to a radio for a long period of time on one station, then turn it off and still be able to "hear", in another form of perception, and tell what is playing 10-20 minutes later"

    .... don't believe everything you read. Human beings cannot pick up radiowaves, fullstop.

    "cause of this from the certain researchers performing this experemint was that once the brain recieves information in one way for long enough to figure out how to change it into sensable data, then an understandable perception results"

    Heh "researchers"....... the brain cannot "percieve" radio waves because none of the sense's can detect them: The ears don't detect radiation at all, they detect vibrations in the air. If anything could detect radiowaves it would be the eyes but they can't.

    "Sooo...When we die, we simply change state into another wave length were we are reincarnated into ourselves as the same being only on another wave length."

    Change state? Changing state means going from gas -> liquid or liquid -> solid etc. etc. And errr you really should look up what wavelength is: The distance between two crest's or two trough's in a given wave.

    Whilst you could claim human beings have a wavelength equal to h/p. A: It has absolutely no relation to how we percieve anything, and B: it's too small to have any real effect, only very small masses display wave-like properties.

    When we die, we die. We cease, we stop, we end, thats it, game over, etc. etc.
    Last edited by Clyde; 04-14-2002 at 11:49 AM.

  12. #27
    Fingerstyle Guitarist taylorguitarman's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to say that "science" said the world was flat. Sorry, I just meant that it was a common belief that the world was flat (yet was completely wrong). The science has been wrong before was another point.
    Still, I do believe in science and I'm not going to go jump off a cliff and hope that gravity no longer exists as I fall (one day it might not who knows). I don't think science is completely wrong, but I do think there's a copious amount of knowledge we are not yet aware of.

    >But its ok, i understand, denial is great.

    No, I like to think of it more as scepticism, which is a great thing for a scientist to have.

    I do believe in God and some form of after life. If I'm right, then all the better. If I'm wrong, I'll never know it.
    If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to see it, do the other trees make fun of it?

  13. #28
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "No, I like to think of it more as scepticism, which is a great thing for a scientist to have."

    Skepticism is definitely a good thing, though i fail to see how skepticism leads one to conclude there is an after-life.

    I doubt you will find anyone who considers themselves a skeptic who believes in an after-life (just check out the skeptics magazines or the numerous skeptics websites). Skeptics generally only accept the most rigorously proved of theorems.

    "I do believe in God and some form of after life. If I'm right, then all the better. If I'm wrong, I'll never know it."

    True enough. But make the most of life, I hate the idea that there are people out there who don't make the most of life, expecting that they will have an eternity of living in the clouds with a harp etc. etc. to do stuff in.
    Last edited by Clyde; 04-14-2002 at 12:00 PM.

  14. #29
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    Then I guess the biography I read was wrong??

  15. #30
    The Earth is not flat. Clyde's Avatar
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    "Then I guess the biography I read was wrong??"

    ... guess so:

    "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."
    [Albert Einstein, obituary in New York Times, 19 April 1955]

    "Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being."
    [Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray. Source: "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", Edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffmann]


    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
    [Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

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