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What's up with Java programmers, anyway?

This is a discussion on What's up with Java programmers, anyway? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Before I read "Clean Code" I could have made the same assertion on the effect C# has on my coding ...

  1. #46
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    Before I read "Clean Code" I could have made the same assertion on the effect C# has on my coding abilities. Now it's possible that I just wrote really bad code back then.

    *stares in awe at "god functions" 100+ lines long*

    I think Java vs C++ vs C# vs Aliens vs Preadator yields the axiom. "No matter who win's, this is a stupid argument"
    Last edited by indigo0086; 05-19-2009 at 11:28 AM.
    Here to Deceive, Inveigle, Obfuscate Since 1945

  2. #47
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    Exactly! I'd like a platform independent C++ with the huge library of Java. We could call it "C?"
    I don't think a VM-based C++ environment is necessarily a bad idea. I just don't think Java is the correct starting point for such an endeavor. As was said, C# is already sort of what you're talking about. But I don't want a C++-like language, I want C++, but targetted to a virtual machine.

    Native garbage collection is probably a fine idea as well, but there are really only a limited set of circumstances where it is useful. RAII and containers take care of a lot of problems (maybe most of them).
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  3. #48
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigo0086
    stares in awe at "god functions" 100+ lines long
    I still have not recovered from that 900+ line function in C++ that a pair of team mates wrote together.
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  4. #49
    spurious conceit MK27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    Exactly! I'd like a platform independent C++ with the huge library of Java. We could call it "C?"
    Good thing we don't have a thread "What's up with C++ programmers?" in the C forum Someone might really find where all those knives and clubs are ("Java is defanged C++, without the sticks, knives, and clubs"). Love weaponry metaphors. Silliness.
    Last edited by MK27; 05-19-2009 at 11:37 AM.
    C programming resources:
    GNU C Function and Macro Index -- glibc reference manual
    The C Book -- nice online learner guide
    Current ISO draft standard
    CCAN -- new CPAN like open source library repository
    3 (different) GNU debugger tutorials: #1 -- #2 -- #3
    cpwiki -- our wiki on sourceforge

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Good thing we don't have a thread "What's up with C++ programmers?" in the C forum Someone might really find where all those knives and clubs are ("Java is defanged C++, without the sticks, knives, and clubs"). Love weaponry metaphors. Silliness.
    Yeah, then they could have a "What's up with C programmers?" in an Assembly forum.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

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  6. #51
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserlight View Post
    I still have not recovered from that 900+ line function in C++ that a pair of team mates wrote together.
    I'm rewriting a piece of software because I couldn't cope with the 6000+ line function.
    All the buzzt!
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    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  7. #52
    C++ Witch laserlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee
    I'm rewriting a piece of software because I couldn't cope with the 6000+ line function.
    How unfortunate. I managed to pursuade the third member of that sub-team to do a rewrite for the other two members.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    I'm rewriting a piece of software because I couldn't cope with the 6000+ line function.
    I've seen the same and many other horror stories. There are simply too many programmers in the world. I hope the range of skills isn't the same in other fields. I'd hate to think there are airline pilots or surgeons of the same relative quality.

  9. #54
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    > There are simply too many programmers in the world.
    Not sure about too many programmers. Perhaps there are too many "programmers" and not enough programmers

  10. #55
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    In this case, it was a radio technology engineer who programmed because nobody else understood the subject matter.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    Yeah, then they could have a "What's up with C programmers?" in an Assembly forum.
    Not that I support emacs, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    I'm rewriting a piece of software because I couldn't cope with the 6000+ line function.
    Christ. I get annoyed when there's >1000 lines in a file... much (much) less a function.
    long time; /* know C? */
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastiani View Post
    Something I've noticed from asking questions on the JDN forums is just how clueless these people are. Of the 50+ responses to posts there, except for maybe 3 or so, I've gotton nothing but non-sequitars, head-scratching, and confused expressions. This isn't limited to the junior members, either - even the veterans there are apt to respond with things like "why would you want to do such a thing?" and the like. And if it doesn't come in a can (ie: some Java package) then your chances of getting a meaningful reply dwindle to mostly zero.

    Has C++ just made us better programmers - more inquisitive, pushing our minds to the limits, always searching for better insight, while Java programmers brains turn to jell-o due to non-exposure to the 'low-level details'? Pure speculation. But what I do know is that I'd probably get better Java advice on CBoard!


    I'll program in whatever language fits the job. But it turns out a lot of big companies love java.
    I use to bad mouth java before I even used it simply because I was young and dumb and didn't even realize all the power java had to offer. But once I was forced to use it at work I really enjoyed having a library to do every little thing I can think of for me, why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to? If their library or data structure didn't fit my needs exactly I could simply EXTEND IT and MAKE IT BETTER! How exciting is that? Oh wait so your saying my code can run on Windows, *nix, and even z/OS? Sounds neat to me!

    If they are willing to pay me $75,000 straight out of college to program in java, so be it . . . on the other hand if they want me to program in C or C++ that’s fine with me as well. But I guess the bonus of where I work is I can pick what project I want to work on and if it’s not low level it’s going to be java, not C++ from what I've been seeing . If its more low level it’s going to be C or ASM. If its some other language I'll learn that and use it to get the job done.

    To really show you how prominent Java is (even when speed matters) I worked for IBM for a year in their Tivoli division (in RTP where you work) and they said they are trying to phase out using C++ and have been for awhile, its either Java, C, or ASM. They even use Java on the mainframes. A huge thing right now is converting a ton of old C++ programs to Java at IBM. All their massive products lines in rational are programmed in Java on the eclipse framework, as well as websphere to name a few. Obviously people out there find java a very powerful language or there would be no demand for it. Look at C#, what language does that remind you of? Kind of looks like they were taking a few neat features from the java language. I also realize java took some neat features from other languages before it as well.

    This thread reminded me of another post in a scheme/lisp forum. He posted about how superior he felt they were (the scheme/lisp programmers) because they code in a functional language unlike those silly C/C++ programmers.

    But I guess if you have a power trip talking about your supremacy over someone else based on what language they code in ... you may want to take a step back and think about how ridiculous that sounds. I need to start a thread "What is up with programmers and their absurd power trips?" I guess everyone has their hobbies?

    Also out of curiosity ... what was the problem that Java couldn't do but C++ could? or as you said people were confused on why you would do such a thing?
    Last edited by mr_coffee; 05-26-2009 at 04:38 AM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_coffee View Post
    Also out of curiosity ... what was the problem that Java couldn't do but C++ could?
    Speed.
    Inline assembly code.
    "I am probably the laziest programmer on the planet, a fact with which anyone who has ever seen my code will agree." - esbo, 11/15/2008

    "the internet is a scary place to be thats why i dont use it much." - billet, 03/17/2010

  14. #59
    Woof, woof! zacs7's Avatar
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    > Also out of curiosity ... what was the problem that Java couldn't do but C++ could?
    Women.






    Boom Tish.

  15. #60
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    >> But I guess if you have a power trip talking about your supremacy over someone else based on what language they code in

    I had hoped that I made it clear (later in the thread, at least) that I was just joking about the inferiority of Java programmers.

    >> But once I was forced to use it at work I really enjoyed having a library to do every little thing I can think of for me, why reinvent the wheel if you don't have to?

    The same could be said of C++, actually. There are thousands of free software libraries out there that can do everything that Java can do.

    >> If their library or data structure didn't fit my needs exactly I could simply EXTEND IT and MAKE IT BETTER!

    Sure, as long as you can squeeze it into a single-inheritance scheme.

    >> Oh wait so your saying my code can run on Windows, *nix, and even z/OS? Sounds neat to me!

    And C++ doesn't?

    >> (even when speed matters)

    Unless you're talking about *compiled* bytecode then that's just not true. Besides being interpreted, Java uses stack-based manipulation of operands, which is, by definition, slower than register-based execution.

    >> Look at C#, what language does that remind you of? Kind of looks like they were taking a few neat features from the java language. I also realize java took some neat features from other languages before it as well.

    I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but I see nothing revolutionary about the "features" of the Java language. Toothless and clumsy, more appropriately.

    >> Also out of curiosity ... what was the problem that Java couldn't do but C++ could? or as you said people were confused on why you would do such a thing?

    I'm currently working on a project that requires some Java coding, and I was seeking strictly Java-related advice on that particular forum. What I was actually commenting about was the clueless responses I was getting from the members there. Incidentally, seeking help elsewhere, I was able to locate much better advice, so I suppose it was just a "bad bunch" of posters making my life miserable (and thus fueling the apparent stereotype).

    >> I use to bad mouth java before I even used it simply because I was young and dumb and didn't even realize all the power java had to offer.

    To be sure, Java certainly does have it's uses, and it's overall vision of interoperability is quite admirable. In that respect, I would even go as far as to say that it has fundamentally changed the face of software development. Still, the language itself is rather limited, and could have been much better, IMO.
    Code:
    #include <cmath>
    #include <complex>
    bool euler_flip(bool value)
    {
        return std::pow
        (
            std::complex<float>(std::exp(1.0)), 
            std::complex<float>(0, 1) 
            * std::complex<float>(std::atan(1.0)
            *(1 << (value + 2)))
        ).real() < 0;
    }

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