No SecuROM on Sims 3

This is a discussion on No SecuROM on Sims 3 within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by MK27 Anyone that can rationalize $20-30 million in production costs for a video game needs to take ...

  1. #31
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Anyone that can rationalize $20-30 million in production costs for a video game needs to take a basic accounting class (after the lobotomy). Somebody is ripping someone off somewhere for something (on a regular basis), but it ain't software pirates.
    No, it's true. At least I can prove it's blazingly high.
    Consider a team of 80 members, whose salary each is $2000 / month.
    The game takes 3 years to develop and test.
    That is $2000 x 80 x 36 = 5..760..000
    Make that $3000 / month and the costs rise to $8..640..000.

    You see? It isn't so cheap anymore.
    Here's a quote:

    The industry insider went on to say, “Kutaragi has said, ‘Please develop suitable software for PS3 - this software must not be of the same standard as PS2 software.’ Developing software for the PS3 from scratch will require an initial investment of at least 2 billion yen [US $17.6 million] [not including development costs]. There are not many software companies that can easily afford that kind of money.”
    Source: PS3 Development Costs Too high?

    Another quote:
    Ubisoft's Red Steel game for Wii will incur a development cost of approximately $12.75 million. Red Steel is being readied to launch alongside the Wii later this year. According to its developers, the game will have approximately 13 hours of play time.

    Wii is considered to be the cheapest next-generation console to develop for. In May, THQ president Brian Farrell estimated Wii development costs are in the range of a quarter to half of that required for PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360 development. What does this mean for developers? A game such as Red Steel could cost them between $24 - $48 million on PS3 or 360.
    Source: Wii Development costs a quarter to half compared to PS3/360 (Nintendo + Wii + Ubisoft + Red Steel + Sony + PS3)

    See? It's not so farfetched, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    So they can burn a CD/DVD, but not replace an exe file, even if they are given specific instructions?

    ALL scene uploads are bundled with a text file explaining how to access the content, it's part of the scene rules, and if an upload does not follow the rules, it is nuked and a fixed version is uploaded instead.

    And since the scene has all the good cracker, 90% of uploaded games and programs are bundled with specific instruction on how to use the crack.

    I actually downloaded one of the bundled text files, from an Adobe photoshop torrent.


    Go try it out yourself, any torrent with a crack, just make sure to only check the info text file, nothing illegal about that.

    If grandma/grandpa can't figure _that_ out, then they sure as .... can't copy a DVD either.
    And who says they know where to find a torrent or how to actually download something via torrents?
    I bet that's not something they do every day.
    Last edited by Elysia; 05-18-2009 at 11:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK27 View Post
    Frank Zappa never lost any money on records for anybody. I understand it was very expensive for him to tour because he wanted a lot of high paid muscians tho. He also recommended (before the internet was implimented, but the technology was available) that record companies should distribute stuff as a paid service. In other words, you subscribe for $30 a month and you can have as much as you can stomach. The fee covers the expenses. Everyone gets paid, and the consumer doesn't have to gamble at a store. But FZ would be the anti-christ for the company execs.

    They do not put money into risk. They put it into increasingly formulaic pap and rest on the principle that some percentage of it will stick.
    I did not say FZ lost anyones money - in fact nearly all of his music was on his own record-label, because he didn't like the big record companies. But his own record company still did the same things that other music companies do...

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    And who says they know where to find a torrent or how to actually download something via torrents?
    I bet that's not something they do every day.
    ...and this furthers your argument in which way? If the so called 'casual pirates' are so casual that they don't even know where to get their illegal copies, what is the point of the DRM protection again?

    Everyone who knows how to use a torrent tracker and downloader, knows how to use the included cracks. There is no such thing as casual pirates when talking about games and software.
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  4. #34
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    No, but seriously, there are always people who can't do something.
    Not to say it isn't hard, but DRM scares some people away, which is part of what it is meant to do.
    "Casual" simply refers to those who are scared away or just can't do it for some reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    No, but seriously, there are always people who can't do something.
    Not to say it isn't hard, but DRM scares some people away, which is part of what it is meant to do.
    "Casual" simply refers to those who are scared away or just can't do it for some reason.
    So SecuROM and the likes, scares away some of the pirates who has to replace one or two files in the install directory, and instead encourages people to go through the hassle of getting it to work the legal way, e.g. online activation, phoning in to get more activations, putting up with activation server downtime, having to remove all disk drive emulators and turning off ECN, putting up with rootkits being installed with the game as well as device drivers and so on.

    Honestly, i think DRM scares people into pirating, not the other way around.
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  6. #36
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Then you haven't been reading facts.
    Look at the article I presented at the beginning of the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  7. #37
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Then you haven't been reading facts.
    Look at the article I presented at the beginning of the thread.
    Neo1 is right about this. I've heard that many people download cracks for their legit games because of annoying DRMs.
    "The Internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore

  8. #38
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    I do agree. Hence the perfect balance.
    DRMs have to exist because of piracy, but DRM is evil and causes piracy. An endless evil loop.
    Well, at least you have insight on why they do exist in the first place and why companies aren't planning on removing them.
    (Which is why we really have to SUPPORT them instead of spurning them!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Then you haven't been reading facts.
    Look at the article I presented at the beginning of the thread.
    ...

    Similarly copy protection won't stop someone familiar with cracking tools, nor someone who knows how to use torrents,
    This is the point i've been debating all along, pirating in the P2P sense will not be stopped by any kind of DRM, at all.

    If by casual pirating, you mean friends borrowing eachothers games, like it says in the article, then please explain to me what the difference is? Obviously they save some bandwidth and exchange the discs in person instead, but what is stopping them from cracking the game at that point? Try to google "crack + gamename", and see how many hits you get.

    I don't agree with the author of that article on this point. He probably is right about the increased venue though, i remember Starforce taking 1 months for the crackers to break, some of the protection software they use is tough. And so in that month and a half, profit was good i guess.

    Alright, i concede, good point.

    But there is no such thing as casual pirates, not anymore atleast.
    How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo1 View Post
    But there is no such thing as casual pirates, not anymore atleast.
    I digress. I still do believe there is such a thing, even if on a smaller scale.
    But I can see this not being the biggest point for copyright protection.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #41
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    I do agree. Hence the perfect balance.
    I would like to point out that you are essentially promoting a false compromise for the reasons you gave. None of the conclusions the author drew from here regarding what vendors should do have to deal with DRM or its necessity in the market; all of them are related to the distribution part of marketing. Had the author concluded that DRM is necessary after vendors do the things he's listed, then he has done so fallaciously.

    In example, if vendors coordinate worldwide releases, then the window to steal it is so small the economic impact would be negligible. As has been raised several times, the presence of DRM does not frustrate pirates and mainly frustrates purchasers (enjoy your $50 rental, oops, limited install release). The so-called casual pirates merely get their digital copies from other people who have done the work, it's pointless to argue that.

    And if consumers quit the hysteria over DRM, as the author put it, then don't be surprised if DRM is simply a relic, because people are supporting the companies. Someone in the private sector will decide this eventually once the distribution models are working.

    Secondly, and perhaps more importantly as you've directly stated, PC games will not die because you did not find the golden mean for DRM. The author of the article thinks that 'death' means removal from reality (people do not play games anymore) and argued as such. Music has been similarly devalued, some distribution methods still use DRM and have not died yet, nor will they ever unless companies themselves phase it out. Audiophiles in particular will continue to support CD vendors like they supported vinyl. Perhaps you meant differently but I find that irrelevant at this point.

    I think that providing a means to sample a game will stop all the piracy that companies will be able to stop, and should be focused on stopping. Some people will steal regardless. There are people out there who have every program for the Apple II, every song ever digitized, which is probably more than they are ever going to listen to in their lives. You're not going to stop those kinds of pack rats. They're likely only going to be able to spend money on some things.

    I'm not sure if Blizzard does this for all their releases but Starcraft allowed people to "borrow" the game in the sense that you could install a spawned version from a friend's disk. The only difference was that you couldn't play online. Preventing outright stealing all without DRM. It is possible.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 05-18-2009 at 02:02 PM.

  12. #42
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    I will state this again.
    I do consider DRM necessary, in some form. However, most of what you mention (such as below), is not something I would consider acceptable, nor should anyone else.
    But remember that there are fair DRM and draconian DRM. The first is okay, the latter is not.
    If your game simply checks with an activation server that your game is legait, what's the harm? Similarly, if it checks if the legit disc is in the drive, what's the harm? It may be somewhat annoying (the latter), but suck it up! At least we can do this much to support game companies.
    This does not mean you should put up with any draconian DRM. Instead, don't buy it, don't pirate it and fire off a hate mail to the company, making your opinion clear.
    I also do believe that companies should take additional actions, some of the good from the article are:
    Release more demos. Demos are becoming rarer these days, and this provides an excuse for piracy. Of course Crysis had a full demo for example and was still pirated to the tune of almost 1 million copies in 2008 alone, however a demo released before the final game will help some legitimate purchasers avoid the temptation of day-zero piracy, help manage user expectations about the final game, spread valuable word of mouth legitimately, and also help identify major bugs earlier, leading to quicker patches.
    Stop delaying releases by region. Releasing games earlier in some regions is probably the single biggest incentive for people to pirate a game and contribute to day-zero piracy. Releasing games with different protection methods in different regions also allows pirates to simply attack the weakest link to achieve a working crack. For example the TAGES system in STALKER: Clear Sky went uncracked for two weeks after release, however the Russian StarForce version of the game's executable - which was released three weeks earlier in Russia - was cracked and used as a working crack for the non-Russian versions upon their release. So release all games globally at approximately the same time, and unify the protection method if you're serious about slowing down day-zero piracy.
    Lower prices on digital distribution. Instead of making sure that digital copies match retail copies in an effort to protect retail distribution, accept the transition to digital distribution by lowering prices to realistically reflect the lower costs, potentially increasing sales due to the greater convenience at a lower price.
    ...and...
    Drop the DRM hysteria. Work with developers and publishers to provide verified and rational feedback on problems you genuinely believe are related to DRM so that they can rectify the issues, either through patches or workarounds, and of course to prevent these issues in newer versions of the protection systems. If all else fails, don't buy games which have problematic DRM, but don't pirate them either - this sends an unambiguous message to the games companies that all demand for their product - both legitimate and illegitimate - is falling.
    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    In example, if vendors coordinate worldwide releases, then the window to steal it is so small the economic impact would be negligible.
    I agree they should, one of the things I believe is very necessary (as quoted above).

    As has been raised several times, the presence of DRM does not frustrate pirates and mainly frustrates purchasers (enjoy your $50 rental, oops, limited install release). The so-called casual pirates merely get their digital copies from other people who have done the work, it's pointless to argue that.
    That is a very evil DRM scheme that should not exist, or so I do believe.

    And if consumers quit the hysteria over DRM, as the author put it, then don't be surprised if DRM is simply a relic, because people are supporting the companies. Someone in the private sector will decide this eventually once the distribution models are working.
    You still forget that people pirate just because they can. The DRM hysteria going away won't change that. In fact, taking away DRM altogether would just harm them for no good.
    Then again, maybe the piracy will go away, who knows? But right now, it's not there yet!
    At first, music was all DRM. Yet, people bought music, supported the companies. And now the DRM is going away and they are still making huge profit. It's a win-win, but first steps first.

    I'm not sure if Blizzard does this for all their releases but Starcraft allowed people to "borrow" the game in the sense that you could install a spawned version from a friend's disk. The only difference was that you couldn't play online. Preventing outright stealing all without DRM. It is possible.
    But this, my friend, is a form of DRM. And it's a fair DRM, too.
    If it wasn't DRMd, you would be able to play online, no?
    So obviously there is some sort of DRM, but it's kind of fair, don't you agree?

    That is the kind of DRM that we might hope to get and accept.
    By surrendering to that sort of DRM, we support the companies and everyone becomes happy.
    We can't have everything--we must sacrifice something--but that doesn't mean we have to give up all of our rights.
    Does this make sense? Because this is my point.
    The article is also really nice because it helped open my eyes. I just thought DRM was all evil before, but after reading it, I decided to throw my support behind fair types of DRMs and support companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  13. #43
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    You still forget that people pirate just because they can.
    Did I forget?
    I think that providing a means to sample a game will stop all the piracy that companies will be able to stop, and should be focused on stopping. Some people will steal regardless.
    At first, music was all DRM. Yet, people bought music, supported the companies. And now the DRM is going away and they are still making huge profit. It's a win-win, but first steps first.
    Lolwut. Mars started out selling bootlegs you know. So from a historical standpoint music was not "at first ... all DRM." Or you could be saying something like what I was trying to tell you, that DRM is only a knee-jerk reaction, poorly conceived precursor to a better distribution system. In which case you agree with me and thank you.

    You also claim to support the measures the author suggested for vendors in the article so again why the false compromise? Because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia
    But this, my friend, is a form of DRM. And it's a fair DRM, too.
    If it wasn't DRMd, you would be able to play online, no?
    So obviously there is some sort of DRM, but it's kind of fair, don't you agree?

    That is the kind of DRM that we might hope to get and accept.
    What I described is not DRM. DRM is...

    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Digital rights management (DRM) is a generic term that refers to access control technologies that can be used by hardware manufacturers, publishers, copyright holders and individuals to impose limitations on the usage of digital content and devices. The term is used to describe any technology which makes the unauthorized use of such digital content and devices technically formidable, but generally doesn't include other forms of copy protection which can be circumvented without modifying the file or device, such as serial numbers or keyfiles. It can also refer to restrictions associated with specific instances of digital works or devices.
    The spawn system can be circumvented by simply burning a copy, meaning the spawn system merely unplugged some of the code. I would also debate whether some validation schemes are really DRM at all as they are excused by the wiki's definition. We are all worried about the worst examples so the kind of pleading you're doing strikes me as bizarre.

    The thing is if a reasonable ecosystem is put in place, while you could cheat, most people won't, so special technologies are not needed. Don't install ........ to my drive, period, don't sell me a rental as a release.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 05-18-2009 at 05:28 PM.

  14. #44
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    That's a bold statement for someone whose signature (inaccurately) quotes Benjamin Franklin.
    I was not intending to quote exactly a historical person. Making the claim that since my quote is in your eyes stolen somehow invalidates my point of view is a bit illogical. In fact it's a bit of a personal attack because you obviously could not come up with something concrete to rebuttal me with so why not devalue the person making the claims. Are you sure you aren't running for office somewhere?

  15. #45
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Fine, fine, fine. Believe whatever you want.
    Nevertheless, it's still DRM to me because technically it is a sort of Digital Rights Management.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

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