View Poll Results: do you believe in aliens(extra terrestrials)?

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Do you believe in aliens(extra terrestrials)?

This is a discussion on Do you believe in aliens(extra terrestrials)? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; You guys seriously need to stop thinking only in 4 dimensions. Space might seem empty to us because of our ...

  1. #121
    and the hat of sweating
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    You guys seriously need to stop thinking only in 4 dimensions.

    Space might seem empty to us because of our limited perception of the universe (we only have 5 senses), but as was pointed out before, space and all matter is composed out of Quantum Strings, so to be truly empty you'd need to look outside of our universe.

    Time is just another form of distance, except it's the distance between two of the exact same points in space, just at different, well, times for lack of a better word. So without space, there's no time. Therefore talking about time before the big bang is meaningless.

    What we see with our eyes isn't 4 dimensions; it's 3 dimensions, then 3 dimensions again a split second later... just like a movie is a series of still frames that look like they move when you play them fast enough. If you try to imagine 4 dimensions, (taking the Earth orbiting the sun for example) you wouldn't see the Earth moving around the sun, you would see the Earth at every point around the Sun simultaneously. It would look kind of like a tube around the sun, because you're now seeing multiple points in time simultaneously.

    Now if you really want to make your brain explode, try imagining 5 dimensions. Personally I like to think of the 5th dimension as alternate realities. So now you're seeing the 4 dimensions you imagined earlier + the same thing, in the same space, in alternate timelines...

    That's as far as my brain can go. I have no idea what 6 dimensions would look like, but I'm pretty sure I'd go insane if I ever managed to figure it out.
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  2. #122
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    dimensions != alternate realites
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  3. #123
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    Space might seem empty to us because of our limited perception of the universe (we only have 5 senses)
    I don't know about you, but most humans have more than 5 senses.

    visual (sight)
    auditory (hearing)
    taste
    tactile (touch)
    olphactory (smell)
    heat/cold
    proprioception (body position)
    pain

    What we see with our eyes isnt 3 dimensions, its 2 dimensions from 2 perspectives, which our visual cortex assembles into a 3 dimensional image internally. We dont see one image then a split second later see another image, our eyes dont work like cameras, the image data is continuously flowing into the visual cortex and being decoded.
    Last edited by abachler; 03-08-2009 at 04:03 AM.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  4. #124
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    You're wrong about at least two of those: pain and the sensation of hot and cold are both sensory experiences. It is a mistake to classify human experience as the senses. Furthermore, the senses that cpjust was mentioning are the ones whose inputs come from the rest of the world, and the ones which help us understand the world the most.

  5. #125
    Reverse Engineer maxorator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpjust View Post
    You guys seriously need to stop thinking only in 4 dimensions.

    Space might seem empty to us because of our limited perception of the universe (we only have 5 senses), but as was pointed out before, space and all matter is composed out of Quantum Strings, so to be truly empty you'd need to look outside of our universe.

    Time is just another form of distance, except it's the distance between two of the exact same points in space, just at different, well, times for lack of a better word. So without space, there's no time. Therefore talking about time before the big bang is meaningless.
    Like Elysia said, time is superior, it doesn't belong to dimensions. Time cannot be manipulated. Things in dimensions can be. That's the huge difference. You can move an object in space, but you can't move it in time (back and forth). Time is not actually a scale - it's just one point. The reason why people think that time could be a dimension is because we have memory and we often think about the future. Time itself is just the current point - now.

    Other universes? Sure, they can exist, but just far far away from our universe in space, making it a part of the same 3-dimensional system.

    Ever wondered why it's called the string theory? I'll give you a hint - it's a theory that some scientists believe to be true. We just need to wait about 10-20 to get a new theory. Maybe a better one, that actually answers more questions than it raises.
    Last edited by maxorator; 03-08-2009 at 05:48 AM.
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  6. #126
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    Like Elysia said, time is superior, it doesn't belong to dimensions.
    Define belong, because cpjust is basically saying the same thing I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    But you can define distances in terms of time (rate of speed times time), so it doesn't make sense to me that time is wholly different from space. It might not be tangible or real, but time being separate from space makes it seem purposeless. In other words, when something takes place is as important as where it takes place because it's plausible that the space was created before or would only exist during the event.

    I hope that puts an end to the argument, at least in this thread.
    Now, you might not be interested in that aspect of time when you're not travelling but I don't think it can be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxorator View Post
    You can move an object in space, but you can't move it in time (back and forth). Time is not actually a scale - it's just one point.
    But that's intellectually dishonest. There are things that you cannot personally move in space but that doesn't change the fact that it is in space and doesn't change the fact that space can be described as a plane. I think there is a distinction to be made in point in time and period of time. Particularly, time is only existing during the period. I made this point earlier when I said time serves no purpose before the Big Bang. Some people seem to think that point in time observation, information, or existence makes time "immortal" or "superior" but it just doesn't wash with me.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 03-08-2009 at 06:24 AM.

  7. #127
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Time serves no purpose before the Big Bang?
    Who are we to say what actually happens out there? Our view is so extremely limited, we hardly know the laws, if they can be called thus, of physics at all.
    I am also skeptical of how the so called big bang could be made if time served no purpose before it. How could the events then lead to a big bang?
    And if time existed, but served no purpose, I would still say it does since the events that caused the big bang to happen in the first place is significant.
    Not to reiterate the point that there probably have been an infinite amount of big bangs and big scale events before the big bang as we know it.

    The plane theory has a valid point, and I can see it as a good one, perhaps with a few lose ends, but I certainly don't think that time before some period has no meaning. Time must be immortal and therefore always have a meaning. It is the turning wheel of the existence as we know it.
    (Of course, we have our own perception of time, as well, but that should not be related to the actual Time that is the Wheel of Existence, as I'd call it.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  8. #128
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Time serves no purpose before the Big Bang?
    Who are we to say what actually happens out there?
    I am not speculating what happened out there but rather trying to assert that the Big Bang starting is point in time information, the specifics of the occurrence is irrelevant. Suppose you know the Universe started last Tuesday. That information would not change even in a supposed state of NULL, and it might help you grasp the concept if you used a less metaphysical example (when did you last eat breakfast?). Since we have point in time information, it is not necessary or even reasonable to assume that time is always effective, especially if you're going to talk about before genesis.

    And the real mind........ is that point in time information can be wrong if the event is only speculated to occur.
    Last edited by whiteflags; 03-08-2009 at 06:48 AM.

  9. #129
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    If Big Bang is the creator of Time, then what created the Big Bang?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  10. #130
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    The big bang is not the creator of time. Humans are the creator of time. Time is not essential to the universe and rather only to our understanding of it.

    I'll grant you any number of cosmic burps you like. Point in time information is the only lasting evidence we have of the progression of time, but the clock started somewhere, we usually call that event an epoch. It simply isn't eternal in too many cases for me to just give up the notion. Think of all the other uses time has related to the distance of things or events; time is only progressing with such constraints.

    Take a song: the note at :30 will always be C# but the song may only last 4 minutes. That fact is forever whether we're paused or playing. But we're not perpetually measuring the distance from the first note to the last.

    Crystal?

  11. #131
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Oh yes, that was how it was. Our perception.
    Everything happens at once, yet our perception makes it so that they happen sequentially, yes?
    While I do agree somewhat with that, I do believe there may also be some other form of Time externally from our senses. It only seems... logical. But what can we say? It's difficult to imagine something without time.

    Sorry about that. When there are many people at once, my mind just cannot keep track of who said what.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  12. #132
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Most people are simply trying to turn nothing into something and need to spend more time becoming familiar with the concept.

  13. #133
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    You're wrong about at least two of those: pain and the sensation of hot and cold are both sensory experiences. It is a mistake to classify human experience as the senses. Furthermore, the senses that cpjust was mentioning are the ones whose inputs come from the rest of the world, and the ones which help us understand the world the most.
    Vision is a sensory experience, what you perceive through vision is not the raw input from your eyes, to not classify sensing heat and cold as a sense is illogical, as it tells you something about your external environment which is scientifically verifiable. Therefore it is a sense.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  14. #134
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Well, that's the definition of sense as a verb. Make the distinction between verb and noun: the "senses" make up the biological facilities we have to perceive sensory input. Even weirder ones like body position can be described as the ability to perceive parts of yourself (like your arms) in physical space, which is explained through neurology.

  15. #135
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteflags View Post
    Well, that's the definition of sense as a verb. Make the distinction between verb and noun: the "senses" make up the biological facilities we have to perceive sensory input. Even weirder ones like body position can be described as the ability to perceive parts of yourself (like your arms) in physical space, which is explained through neurology.
    ultimately all senses can be explained through neurology. If you can perceive it, and it is an actual quantity that really exists, you are sensing it and therefor are using one of your senses.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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