Does VISUAL C++ ruin C?

This is a discussion on Does VISUAL C++ ruin C? within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; I have a feeling it is more of bad communication between the designers and the developers. Designing and implementing are ...

  1. #16
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I have a feeling it is more of bad communication between the designers and the developers. Designing and implementing are two different things. Many designers would have no idea what things would be a headache for programmers to implement.
    I can say however that being able to visually construct my dialogs helps me a million! Imagine sitting there, trying to nudge every control into position by its exact coordinates. Nightmare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #17
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    In order for you to have that much communication, they'd need to virtually be programmers - and in any case - all I'm implying is that it creates a huge potential for that to be a problem - I specifically DIDN'T say that it was an inherent drawback.

    I just use a text editor, and not once have I ever had to nudge things into place using exact coordinates - I just use fractions of the total width.

    I have a feeling you just like hearing yourself talk, being the programming goddess, and all.

  3. #18
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    In order for you to have that much communication, they'd need to virtually be programmers - and in any case - all I'm implying is that it creates a huge potential for that to be a problem - I specifically DIDN'T say that it was an inherent drawback.
    Well, regardless! Obviously it did not work out well, and whatever the reason behind that may be, I do not know. Poor communication, or misunderstandings was merely a guess from the little information I knew. I also know that big projects tend to get difficult to manage (Windows team).

    I just use a text editor, and not once have I ever had to nudge things into place using exact coordinates - I just use fractions of the total width.
    Well, I simply suppose different people get along with different approaches.
    This simply does not work for me. Visual is my cue, but perhaps not necessarily yours or others...

    I have a feeling you just like hearing yourself talk, being the programming goddess, and all.
    That is untrue. My signature incorporates only what others have mentioned and is not what I consider myself as, from my view.
    Being such a thing would mean you are above all else, but I certainly am not. I have learned a great deal since finding this place and I still do, and thus I respect what others say and absorb that criticism or knowledge.

    And as for this debate, I shared only my own experiences with visual designing of forms which I have relied upon heavily and still do when creating GUI applications. It is in no way ruining anything. It works great to me, much more so that if I would have tried to put the controls in there by code. Much faster, much more control, a visual overlook of how things will look, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  4. #19
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    When it comes to GUI development, C# with WPF is the best thing since sliced bread.
    My Website

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  5. #20
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    When it comes to GUI development, C# with WPF is the best thing since sliced bread.
    Thats a rather short sighted opinion, and one I do not share. C# fails to provide the performance or security necessary in many applications, for example real time classification of radar imaging, integrating IFF routines, and providing point and click secure connections to individual units. C# is fine for entry level programmers, or projects that dont involve a lot of technical design, but quite frankely, there are far better GUI front ends out there e.g. LabView.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  6. #21
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Even sliced bread cannot be used for everything. If you want to make large bread cubes for a themed special dish, sliced bread is unusable. My personal opinions aside, that still doesn't mean that sliced bread isn't absolutely great.
    All the buzzt!
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  7. #22
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    I think C# is mighty fine for GUI front end.

    If you need performance then write those items in a C++ dll and call it from C#(Either as COM or P/Invoke).
    Woop?

  8. #23
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    When it comes to GUI development, C# with WPF is the best thing since sliced bread.
    I would agree with that one, though. Windows Forms is probably one of the best visual GUI designers I have seen and certainly beats native dialogs.
    That is not to say I would like to use it since it is locked to managed languages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #24
    The Right Honourable psychopath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prog-bman
    If you need performance then write those items in a C++ dll and call it from C#(Either as COM or P/Invoke).
    Unfortunately, P/Invoke is limited to calling only C functions. There's no really good way to interop with a C++ library unless you wrap it with C++/CLI. At which point I find it much easier to just write the GUI portion of the application in C++/CLI instead of C#. Just don't let the form designer write your GUI code.
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  10. #25
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    But you could declare those C++ functions as extern "C" at least. It will give you limited compatibility.
    But it sucks that you cannot call C++ functions (Microsooooooooooooooooooooooooft!).
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  11. #26
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    You can call C++ functions. You just can't interface with C++ classes unless you wrap them in C++/CLI wrappers.
    Oh, and for calling C++ functions, you either need a .def file (which means you can't call overloaded C++ functions) or you need to specify the mangled name in the P/Invoke.
    All the buzzt!
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    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
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  12. #27
    Registered User C_ntua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidP View Post
    When it comes to GUI development, C# with WPF is the best thing since sliced bread.
    Think of sliced bread. Think now of some really good thick baked bread. Now think of throwing away the sliced bread.

  13. #28
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CornedBee View Post
    You can call C++ functions. You just can't interface with C++ classes unless you wrap them in C++/CLI wrappers.
    Oh, and for calling C++ functions, you either need a .def file (which means you can't call overloaded C++ functions) or you need to specify the mangled name in the P/Invoke.
    So basicalyl C# fails to be ansi compatible. I think I will just stick with using LabView for my GUI front ends.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

  14. #29
    l'Anziano DavidP's Avatar
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    Thats a rather short sighted opinion, and one I do not share. C# fails to provide the performance or security necessary in many applications, for example real time classification of radar imaging, integrating IFF routines, and providing point and click secure connections to individual units. C# is fine for entry level programmers, or projects that dont involve a lot of technical design, but quite frankely, there are far better GUI front ends out there e.g. LabView.
    Short sighted?

    WPF allows the use of XAML to create your GUI which is far better than programmatically doing it. Having tried the Windows API and MFC and other GUI libraries in Windows, using WPF by far was the easiest and provided me with the most flexibility. I didn't once say that C# is the high-and-mighty programming language. My personal favorite language has always been C++, but even it is not always the best tool for the job as we all know. No...I just said that using C# and WPF to make a GUI is the best thing since sliced bread, and if you try it you will most definitely believe me.

    In terms of LabVIEW. Wow. You design graphical user interfaces in LabVIEW? LabVIEW is a programming language meant for instrument testing and analysis and control. It is indeed very powerful in that regard and has definitely found its use. I have the LabVIEW NI Developer Suite and I use it often, but definitely not for making the sleekest GUI out there.
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  15. #30
    Malum in se abachler's Avatar
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    Well, seeign as how most of the project I work on involve interfacing AI to instrumentation, I guess LabView suits my needs perfectly. I dont realy see what you expect a GUI to do that cant be doe in LabView, so perhaps instead of being vague, you coudl give specific examples.
    Until you can build a working general purpose reprogrammable computer out of basic components from radio shack, you are not fit to call yourself a programmer in my presence. This is cwhizard, signing off.

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