Thought I would never say this...

This is a discussion on Thought I would never say this... within the A Brief History of Cprogramming.com forums, part of the Community Boards category; Originally Posted by Mario F. Do I? I think I do. But what exactly am I defending when I'm disabling ...

  1. #16
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    Do I?
    I think I do. But what exactly am I defending when I'm disabling the right of the consumer to make a backup copy of his CD or DVD?
    That's true. Clearly you are infringing on consuer rights by disabling copies.
    I agree. Backups are a good thing and should be allowed.
    But then again, as a copyright holder of a certain something, you should be entitled to have some kind of protection or right to defend your work.

    I hope I made it clear why I don't think there is such thing as good copyright protection schemes. DRMs, in the absence of the DMCA, would essentially become illegal.
    I don't really know much about this DMCA law.
    But certainly, I do think there can be a non-intrusive copyright protection, and Mass Effect is a step in the right direction. It's not quite there yet, but I think it will be less to complain about rather than SecuROM or Starforce.
    I also believe you in when you say sales will decline, unless something is done about these draconian copyright protection systems and inferior product quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  2. #17
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I don't really know much about this DMCA law.
    That didn't stop you from talking about it before. How quickly we forget having a whole conversation. You didn't learn anything from that? You should listen to other people more often I think.

  3. #18
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I remember I stayed out of the big debate, too. I know of only a law that says it's illegal to circumvent copyright protections and thus making it illegal to make backups from such things. Though if there are no copyright protections, the law states it is legal to make backups.
    I don't know if DMCA is this law or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  4. #19
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    Do people *really* backup games that cost somewhere between $10 and $50 and are played or viewed a handful of times? If so, I'd guess they're a fraction of one percent of all consumers.

  5. #20
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    It is Elysia, it is, and you stated so yourself in the very thread I linked.

  6. #21
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    I see.
    Although I did say "Digital Millennium something" law.
    Not "Digital Millennium Copyright Act", which I believe it stands for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  7. #22
    Registered User whiteflags's Avatar
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    Well done feigning stupidity, and talking about things you won't admit you understand.

  8. #23
    C++まいる!Cをこわせ! Elysia's Avatar
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    Nope, I avoided the whole DMCA stuff.
    And I will admit I did not know they were one and the same. I don't live in US. I don't know US laws. Simple.
    I know what I have heard, but I am not a master on US laws and I don't I ever intend to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adak View Post
    io.h certainly IS included in some modern compilers. It is no longer part of the standard for C, but it is nevertheless, included in the very latest Pelles C versions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salem View Post
    You mean it's included as a crutch to help ancient programmers limp along without them having to relearn too much.

    Outside of your DOS world, your header file is meaningless.

  9. #24
    (?<!re)tired Mario F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    Do people *really* backup games that cost somewhere between $10 and $50 and are played or viewed a handful of times? If so, I'd guess they're a fraction of one percent of all consumers.
    It's irrelevant whether they do. It's their given right. I don't care otherwise.

    Besides the DMCA extends far beyond video games and touches 3 and 4 figure software as well as other digital content, where the need for a backup is more emergent. You can bet your programming fingers one of the first things I did after spending over 2,000 Euros in Adobe's Master Collection was to backup the DVD, and I couldn't care less for the DMCA that strictly prohibited me from doing so.
    The programmer’s wife tells him: “Run to the store and pick up a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen.”
    The programmer comes home with 12 loaves of bread.


    Originally Posted by brewbuck:
    Reimplementing a large system in another language to get a 25% performance boost is nonsense. It would be cheaper to just get a computer which is 25% faster.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    It's irrelevant whether they do. It's their given right. I don't care otherwise.
    That's fine, but you can bet they're willing to lose your business in an attempt to dissuade the other 99.999&#37; from making copies for friends and family.

  11. #26
    Cat without Hat CornedBee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by medievalelks View Post
    That's fine, but you can bet they're willing to lose your business in an attempt to dissuade the other 99.999&#37; from making copies for friends and family.
    That's not the point. The point is, if it weren't for the DMCA and equivalent laws, it would be illegal for them to do so.
    All the buzzt!
    CornedBee

    "There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any programming language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code."
    - Flon's Law

  12. #27
    Captain Crash brewbuck's Avatar
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    I think it depends on the market. In a mass market like the gaming market, copy protection is pretty much useless. It only takes one smart person to figure out how to crack the software, then everyone can use it, because there is a demand for the cracks.

    In niche markets companies can often get away with simplistic copy protection, just enough to prevent accidental misuse of products. If somebody is determined to break the copy protection, it's going to happen, though.

    You could choose to waste your time in an arms race against the crackers, or you could invest your time into improving your products and creating value for your paying customers. I think that's a much better use of your time.
    Code:
    //try
    //{
    	if (a) do { f( b); } while(1);
    	else   do { f(!b); } while(1);
    //}

  13. #28
    Super Moderator VirtualAce's Avatar
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    But certainly, I do think there can be a non-intrusive copyright protection, and Mass Effect is a step in the right direction. It's not quite there yet, but I think it will be less to complain about rather than SecuROM or Starforce.
    Mass Effect uses SecuROM. The draconian parts were removed because of an onslaught of emails from players saying they would purposely not buy the game and would pirate it if they pursued it. Bioware backed down and now the game only checks CD keys during downloads of extra online content. This is fine by me but nasty SecuROM is still on my system and is still using bad registry keys to keep me from removing it. Also they now detect some SysInternals software that will help you remove bad keys and will thwart it's attempts and/or make your game unplayable if you have it installed.

    If I write software and give it to you that makes use of tricks and hacks in the registry so you cannot remove my software what would you think of me? What would you think of my product? I ask you what is the difference between a so-called 'legal' company doing this to my registry and a hacker or piece of malware or spyware? I say there is no difference. Both are equally as wrong and both should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law because 'intent' is not what makes something legal or illegal.

    If the government won't protect the consumer then I'm sure private consumer protection companies will begin to. Fact is the market always sets the course for these types of things. When the market is no longer willing to bear the brunt of these draconian copy protection schemes companies had better wake up fast.

    I'm referring to copy protection here as it pertains to the mass consumer PC market. Other forms of copy protection in hardware or software for embedded systems are understandable and very few, if any, of them are as stringent or ridiculous as the ones being employed in the PC market.

    Gamers are finally speaking out. Gamers are also saying they went to consoles just because of the copy protection schemes. Gamers are shouting loud and clear that they do not want this junk on their computers. If companies refuse to listen and continue to do what they feel best or what they want regardless of the effect or want of the consumer then those companies are doomed. It's simple economics.

    Complacency to the voice of the consumer is dangerous in any market. We've all seen big companies die near instantaneous deaths when they felt their market position was such that they could do whatever they want without regard to the consequences.
    Last edited by VirtualAce; 07-21-2008 at 10:09 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    Btw, as a creator of something, do you not have the right to defend your work?
    Absolutely. I also have the right to not be taken seriously if what I produce is a joke, and my target audience has the right to consider me a joke because of my pathetic attempt to do something that doesn't actually do what it is advertised to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    I don't think it would be fair to complain about this until it stops working.
    By that logic, it isn't fair for people in an earthquake prone area to complain until an earthquake hits and destroys property (or life). Certainly they can foresee problems and want to voice their opinion (or complaints as some might call them), can't they? If you live in an earthquake prone area and have an idea for how to make things safer, or even just realize that the existing measures are ineffective, isn't it your duty to make yourself heard?

    ---

    I would love to see a game company take a gamble and change the "copy protection" concept for a game into an information gathering concept.

    Instead of disabling the game, just gather information. A unique computer ID (using the hardware configuration and MAC address and such) to go along with the CD Key so if the same computer "registers" multiple times, it isn't counted as multiple registrations with that CD Key, and they could see which CD Keys are being pirated and correlate that with how many copies of the game were sold.

    This would be win-win I think. Consumers would get a game that isn't crippled by horrible copy protection, and the game company could determine whether piracy really is a problem or not. And the pirates would still get the game anyway since we know copy protection doesn't actually work the way companies seem to think it does. After a certain amount of time, they could publish their findings and if the results are that piracy was a big problem, they would be justified in using harsher copy protection schemes and we would hardly be able to complain. Or, more likely, I think it would show that the majority of consumers will actually pay for a good game and that game companies should devote more money to development and less to copy protection.

    Heh, perhaps this is why I am not the CEO of anything.
    abachler: "A great programmer never stops optimizing a piece of code until it consists of nothing but preprocessor directives and comments "

  15. #30
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    Just being pedantic here:-
    Quote Originally Posted by Mario F. View Post
    And Half-Life had no real copy protection mechanism worth its name or an anti-piracy mechanism whatsoever.
    Actually it depended on where you lived. In the UK, where apparently we are all feefs, the Half-Life CD did have a bad sector-type protection to stop people (for a little while, at least), making 1:1 copies. Of course this didn't stop me from lending the CD to other people in school. I then had to hound people to get it back and this encouraged most of them to buy it.

    I know for a fact that in the US and some other territories this wasn't the case.

    You're going to have a hard time persuading the MBAs at larger developers and publishers that annoying copy protection doesn't work. But, as has already been said, I think it's smaller indie developers with great games that will save us.

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